[dboxley]

---

[mikeh]

5♠

I would not have splintered. I would have responded 2♦, to let partner feel good about, say, Axx in diamonds, after I later raise spades. I recognize that there are players who can't imagine not making some immediate raise with 4+ cards in partner's major, and I doubt that anything anyone says on this thread will persuade them to think otherwise, but note how inefficient our auction has become. We are at the 5-level and we don't know if a club lead will routinely beat slam, by driving out the club Ace before diamonds are established, or if slam is anywhere from good to cold.

Had we responded 2♦ then over 2N or 2♠ we bid 3♠ to show a hand with 5+ diamonds, game force values and slam interest. I don't much care that he doesn't know about our real length, since we have compensating high card weakness to make up for it. What I care about is that I have set trump at the 3-level, given a strong hint about a possible source of tricks, and made a mild slam try, all a full level lower in the auction.

[dboxley]

 mikeh, on 2015-July-21, 15:04, said:

5♠

I would not have splintered. I would have responded 2♦, to let partner feel good about, say, Axx in diamonds, after I later raise spades. I recognize that there are players who can't imagine not making some immediate raise with 4+ cards in partner's major, and I doubt that anything anyone says on this thread will persuade them to think otherwise, but note how inefficient our auction has become. We are at the 5-level and we don't know if a club lead will routinely beat slam, by driving out the club Ace before diamonds are established, or if slam is anywhere from good to cold.

Had we responded 2♦ then over 2N or 2♠ we bid 3♠ to show a hand with 5+ diamonds, game force values and slam interest. I don't much care that he doesn't know about our real length, since we have compensating high card weakness to make up for it. What I care about is that I have set trump at the 3-level, given a strong hint about a possible source of tricks, and made a mild slam try, all a full level lower in the auction.

I think u r correct Mike but u r stuck with the auction as given. Your call...

[mikeh]

 dboxley, on 2015-July-21, 15:43, said:

I think u r correct Mike but u r stuck with the auction as given. Your call...

I already made my call before explaining why I would not have needed to had I been at the table 5♠.

[MrAce]

5♠

[nige1]

 dboxley, on 2015-July-21, 14:50, said:

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Agree with mikeh: 5♠

[neilkaz]

 MrAce, on 2015-July-21, 16:29, said:

5♠

5♠ WTP? Don't I have a min for my bidding so far?

[Phil]

Partner is looking for a diamond control but needs something else as well, yet he has no problem looking on the 5 level.

AQxxx xx xx AKxx gives us a pretty good slam (yes I think 5♥ is last train).

AQxxx Axxx xx Ax is a poor slam, at least on a club lead, although partner might have the ♥K too or the ♣Q, which makes it excellent.

The first hand doesn't look like a five level force. Give us a more typical Kxxx x AQxx Jxxx and I'd rather stay off the five level. With the 2nd hand, its a bit sketchy as well.

I have to disagree with those that say our hand is a minimum. We have a 5th trump, an unexpected void and a trick source.

I'm bidding 6♠.

[phil_20686]

6♥

I cannot really imagine that bidding 6S isn't percentage, and I am not really worried about grand, but it seems really lazy not to show the void here.

Although we do have a minimum, this auction has moved past the stage where that really matters, its more a question of "do we have what partner is trying to find out". And he is not making a quantitative raise! So usually when partner goes to the 5 level rather than bidding keycard he is worried about one of two things:
(1) He has xx in a side suit with no declarered control.
(2) He is high in controls but short of tricks.

In either case we likely have what he needs. AQxxx xxxx Ax AQ and grand could be just completely cold for 7. AQxxx Axx xx AKx and 6S just totally cold, and those are really the kind of hands I am looking at for a 5 level bid.

[MrAce]

 Phil, on 2015-July-22, 04:19, said:

Partner is looking for a diamond control but needs something else as well, yet he has no problem looking on the 5 level.

I have a question to everyone, but especially to Phil Clayton since we play together now and then. (Noting that I also don't like starting splinter with this hand initially, but you are N and can not see my hand)

Assume the auction went the way it did up to 5♣. What would 5♥ by responder mean to you, instead of 5♦ ?

a-No ♦ control at all but 1st round ♥ (possibly could bid 5♠ with this?)

b-1st or 2nd round ♦ control and 1st round ♥ (can this cause problem when all pd wanted to hear was 1st round ♦ control in this auction?)

Consider your response to this question in the context that you are playing with me and 5♣ meant one of these things;

- A hand which is scared of losing 2 quick tricks in a suit (in this auction only possible suit is diamonds) and simply checking if we do or not.
- A hand which RKCB would not help to solve his problems. (such as he may have a void himself etc.. and in this auction it seems ♦ is the only suit he may be void)
- A hand .....*Add here other reasons important to you if you have any, including the merits of invitation over invitation if you like it *

The reason I am asking this is that if you like option B, this allows 5♦ cue to show not only a control (1st or 2nd) but also some density in this suit. Or am I overthinking it and making it too complicated?

Thanks!

[gnasher]

 MrAce, on 2015-July-22, 06:02, said:

Assume the auction went the way it did up to 5♣. What would 5♥ by responder mean to you, instead of 5♦ ?

I'm going to unimaginatively say it shows a first-round heart control and denies a diamond control. It's not a matter of being scared: I'm simply telling partner what I've got.

[wbaker]

5!s would be the call I have already bid the extent of my values let partner decide. However I must agree with previous comments 4!hs would not be my call. Instead I would bid 2nt yes Jac. 2nt no my hand is not flat but now partner can see if he has slam interest if so he can start the cooperation. If not he will just bid game.

[mikeh]

 wbaker, on 2015-July-22, 15:19, said:

5!s would be the call I have already bid the extent of my values let partner decide. However I must agree with previous comments 4!hs would not be my call. Instead I would bid 2nt yes Jac. 2nt no my hand is not flat but now partner can see if he has slam interest if so he can start the cooperation. If not he will just bid game.

J2N is not a 'telling' action. It doesn't seek cooperation...it seeks specific information, the nature of which depends on your J2N structure. J2N is an asking bid, not a descriptive bid. It would therefore be most people's last choice here. Most here believe, and rightly so imo, that with this hand, we are best off trying to describe our values. We differ on how best to do that.

[apollo1201]

Having butchered the auction with the 4H call, I continue the slaughter with 6S. Partner might not know what is going on but opps neither. I hope the unexpected values (void + a more than decent side suit) will compensate the blurred values we have.

[MrAce]

 apollo1201, on 2015-July-22, 16:08, said:

Having butchered the auction with the 4H call, I continue the slaughter with 6S.

[jallerton]

 mikeh, on 2015-July-21, 15:04, said:

5♠Had we responded 2♦ then over 2N or 2♠ we bid 3♠ to show a hand with 5+ diamonds, game force values and slam interest. I don't much care that he doesn't know about our real length, since we have compensating high card weakness to make up for it. What I care about is that I have set trump at the 3-level, given a strong hint about a possible source of tricks, and made a mild slam try, all a full level lower in the auction.

So you think that bidding this hand the same way as a 3352 16-count will really help partner? Suppose that he bids RKCB. Are you going to show the void by jumping? Are you going to show the void as an extra ace? Are you going to show the queen of trumps? You will just be guessing, as will partner.

[mikeh]

 jallerton, on 2015-July-22, 16:25, said:

So you think that bidding this hand the same way as a 3352 16-count will really help partner? Suppose that he bids RKCB. Are you going to show the void by jumping? Are you going to show the void as an extra ace? Are you going to show the queen of trumps? You will just be guessing, as will partner.

I don't know about your partners (who I know to be extremely good, so that is not intended as a criticism, merely a statement that I don't know your partnership styles) but I don't think that my partners are likely to leap into keycard when I take a route that very strongly suggests that we should be cuebidding, at least at the point of 3♠. That isn't to say that opener is barred from using keycard, but it is to suggest that if he uses keycard here, I won't be at all unhappy. Usually we don't bid that bluntly unless we have a hand on which the only thing we are interested in knowing is the keycard response. I cannot, in the short time I am taking on this post, think of a hand on which he should keycard and we will be in trouble, compared to splintering initially.

[Phil]

 MrAce, on 2015-July-22, 06:02, said:

I have a question to everyone, but especially to Phil Clayton since we play together now and then. (Noting that I also don't like starting splinter with this hand initially, but you are N and can not see my hand)

Assume the auction went the way it did up to 5♣. What would 5♥ by responder mean to you, instead of 5♦ ?

a-No ♦ control at all but 1st round ♥ (possibly could bid 5♠ with this?)

b-1st or 2nd round ♦ control and 1st round ♥ (can this cause problem when all pd wanted to hear was 1st round ♦ control in this auction?)

Consider your response to this question in the context that you are playing with me and 5♣ meant one of these things;

- A hand which is scared of losing 2 quick tricks in a suit (in this auction only possible suit is diamonds) and simply checking if we do or not.
- A hand which RKCB would not help to solve his problems. (such as he may have a void himself etc.. and in this auction it seems ♦ is the only suit he may be void)
- A hand .....*Add here other reasons important to you if you have any, including the merits of invitation over invitation if you like it *

The reason I am asking this is that if you like option B, this allows 5♦ cue to show not only a control (1st or 2nd) but also some density in this suit. Or am I overthinking it and making it too complicated?

Thanks!

Hey Timo -

I really think that partner needs a diamond control when he bids 5♣. Therefore, if we bid 5♥ it not only confirms a diamond control and shows a heart void. But there's something precluding us from bidding six ourselves. I do not think its LTTC, but I'm pretty sure Frances would disagree.

These five level cue bidding auctions are just so delicate - like mixing nitroglycerine. One wrong move and BOOM.

[Cascade]

Its all very well presenting this auction and asking what to bid but in the real world we normally would have, and all experts would like to have, some agreed information about what the bidding means. In this hand that means:

1. What is the range for 4♥ that we have already shown;

2. What does 5♣ mean and what does it ask for;

3. What do 5♦ and 5♥ mean?

When I play splinters they are normally a narrow range or a split range where responder is going to make another try even over a sign-off with the better range. Usually I play splinters a level lower and there is much more room to find out useful information and 4-level splinters show voids. Even better is to play some scheme of transfer splinters as then there is always room for opener to show a good or bad fit below game.

It is useful to have some protocol for 5-level cues. Ideally that would depend on the auction but even some blanket rules are good, well better than guessing. For me we have the blanket rule, although its not that great on this auction, that 5♣ demands that a slam is bid if partner has the missing control or is the start of a grand slam move. With a lesser hand we have to invite with 5♠. As I said that is not ideal on this auction given the space consuming 4♥ splinter.

[dboxley]

 Cascade, on 2015-July-23, 00:24, said:

Its all very well presenting this auction and asking what to bid but in the real world we normally would have, and all experts would like to have, some agreed information about what the bidding means. In this hand that means:

1. What is the range for 4♥ that we have already shown;

2. What does 5♣ mean and what does it ask for;

3. What do 5♦ and 5♥ mean?

When I play splinters they are normally a narrow range or a split range where responder is going to make another try even over a sign-off with the better range. Usually I play splinters a level lower and there is much more room to find out useful information and 4-level splinters show voids. Even better is to play some scheme of transfer splinters as then there is always room for opener to show a good or bad fit below game.

It is useful to have some protocol for 5-level cues. Ideally that would depend on the auction but even some blanket rules are good, well better than guessing. For me we have the blanket rule, although its not that great on this auction, that 5♣ demands that a slam is bid if partner has the missing control or is the start of a grand slam move. With a lesser hand we have to invite with 5♠. As I said that is not ideal on this auction given the space consuming 4♥ splinter.

1. 4+ trumps, singleton or void, enough to force to game...

2 & 3. You play cues show cheapest 1st or 2nd round control but of course the 5H bid shows 1st