[barmar]

ldrews, on 2018-August-02, 14:54, said:

I believe there have been 2 or 3 cases of illegal voting by illegal immigrants in the courts the last couple of years. So, urban myth? I think not. Significant? We don't know. There have been precints where there have been more votes counted than voters registered, a couple in Chicago I have read about.

The myth is about "busloads" -- 2 or 3 cases hardly fits that description. The point of the claimants is that there are enough of them to make a difference in the result, and this justifies the need for voter ID.

I'll bet there are more instances of people accidentally marking their ballots wrong than illegal voters. So we can get much more bang for our buck by improving the ergonomics of voting than worrying about authenticating voters. But that doesn't fit into the protectionist and racist narratives of the right.

[hrothgar]

ldrews, on 2018-August-02, 14:54, said:

I believe there have been 2 or 3 cases of illegal voting by illegal immigrants in the courts the last couple of years. So, urban myth? I think not.

Shifting goal posts again Drews.

Your original post talked about "Busloads of people coming over the borders" coming in over the borders to vote illegally, echoing the following

Quote

In February 2017, less than a month after taking office, President Trump, in a private meeting
with officials, including former Sen. Kelly Ayotte, claimed without evidence that he and Ayotte
lost in New Hampshire in the 2016 general election because thousands of people were “brought
in on buses” from Massachusetts to “illegally” vote in New Hampshire.

Why are you now discussing "2 or 3 cases of illegal voting in the last couple years"

Quote

Significant? We don't know.

Actually, we do know because no one has ever been able to demonstrate that there is widespread fraudulent voting in the US...
Whole lotta of people have tried
Lot of lies going around
But no legitimate proof

Quote

There have been precints where there have been more votes counted than voters registered, a couple in Chicago I have read about.

https://www.snopes.c...ers-in-detroit/

Please note: I do not dispute that there have been examples where individuals have cast fraudulent votes, however, my understanding is that

1. This is an isolated and rare phenomena
2. Attempts to combat this end disenfranchising several orders of magnitude more legitimate voters from participating in elections
3. And coincidentally, the folks being disenfranchised are overwhelmingly Democratic voters and the ones throwing them off the voter roles are Republicans

[Chas_P]

Winstonm, on 2018-August-02, 15:34, said:

This would likely help.

From here: https://www.brennanc...er-registration



Although you may not approve as it actually increases legal registrations instead of restricting voters.

I have no problem with that. Both my granddaughters were automatically registered to vote when they got driver licenses. But they have to show those driver licenses when they show up at the polls.

[hrothgar]

Chas_P, on 2018-August-02, 18:26, said:

I have no problem with that. Both my granddaughters were automatically registered to vote when they got driver licenses.

So, we have a system where people who can afford to buy a car find it easier to register to vote...

[ldrews]

hrothgar, on 2018-August-02, 17:36, said:

Shifting goal posts again Drews.

Your original post talked about "Busloads of people coming over the borders" coming in over the borders to vote illegally, echoing the following




Why are you now discussing "2 or 3 cases of illegal voting in the last couple years"



Actually, we do know because no one has ever been able to demonstrate that there is widespread fraudulent voting in the US...
Whole lotta of people have tried
Lot of lies going around
But no legitimate proof



https://www.snopes.c...ers-in-detroit/

Please note: I do not dispute that there have been examples where individuals have cast fraudulent votes, however, my understanding is that

1. This is an isolated and rare phenomena
2. Attempts to combat this end disenfranchising several orders of magnitude more legitimate voters from participating in elections
3. And coincidentally, the folks being disenfranchised are overwhelmingly Democratic voters and the ones throwing them off the voter roles are Republicans

A lot of citizens, including myself, have significant concerns about the possibility/probability of fraudulent voting. Since you dismiss our concerns as irrelevant/negligible or partisan/racist then our only recourse is to outvote you and then jam our solution down your throat. That seems to be the method that you are comfortable with. See you at the voting booth.

[Chas_P]

hrothgar, on 2018-August-02, 18:36, said:

So, we have a system where people who can afford to buy a car find it easier to register to vote...

I didn't say they bought cars. I said they got driver licenses which automatically provides a photo ID and also automatically registered them to vote. What could be easier than that?

[ggwhiz]

ldrews, on 2018-August-02, 19:17, said:

A lot of citizens, including myself, have significant concerns about the possibility/probability of fraudulent voting.

You really think they are voting fraudulently in the millions (like 3+ in 2016)? Where do they find the time with all that pillaging and raping?

[hrothgar]

Chas_P, on 2018-August-02, 19:27, said:

I didn't say they bought cars. I said they got driver licenses which automatically provides a photo ID and also automatically registered them to vote.

I understand what you said...

I also know that the set of people who get drivers licenses is very strongly correlated with the set of families that own cars.
(If you don't have access to a car, its damn hard to get the necessary practice driving that you need to get your driver's license)

Moreover, the set of people who get drivers licenses is much less likely to be living in a city and much more likely to be living out in the sticks.

Quote

What could be easier than that?

The State or federal government automatically provides all citizens with an ID that they can use to vote when they turn 18

[johnu]

Chas_P, on 2018-August-02, 19:27, said:

I didn't say they bought cars. I said they got driver licenses which automatically provides a photo ID and also automatically registered them to vote. What could be easier than that?

Having lived in Manhattan in the past, I know many adults, many pretty well to do, that do not have driving licenses. They don't own cars, and they have no need to drive where they live.

[johnu]

Chas_P, on 2018-July-28, 18:12, said:

It's terrible! It's almost as bad as Obama promising that your premiums will decrease by 20% and if you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. I'm heartsick.

You probably won't believe this, but most of the blame for Obama's overly optimistic claims were because the Affordable Care Act wasn't as strong as it could have been. He dilly dallied around trying to build Republican consensus which was a complete waste of time. He gave up concessions to Republicans to try to get them to vote for the bill, but ultimately there were a combined 0, zero, zip, nada votes from Republicans in the House and Senate for this bill.

[johnu]

ldrews, on 2018-July-29, 07:27, said:

You are right, I believe that all taxation is legalized theft. It is extracting money from non-consenting individuals through the use or threat of us of force. Isn't that theft? The fact that it is authorized by law simply makes it legal. Hence, legalized theft.

That's an infantile, self-centered, selfish view.

Consider this. Unless you are living in a cave and living completely off the grid in a completely self contained environment, you are using goods and services that are available because of taxes that other people have paid. If you don't contribute by paying your share of taxes, you are basically stealing from the rest of society. Paying your share of taxes is a responsibility for living in society.

Public schools - paid by taxes
Local roads and highways - paid by taxes
Freeway systems - paid by taxes
Local subway and train systems - paid by taxes
Electrical power - paid by taxes
US Military - paid by taxes
Police and fire departments - paid by taxes
Local, state, federal governments - paid by taxes

The list goes on and on. There is almost no segment of your life that is not affected by goods and services ultimately provided by taxes that everybody pays. You don't want to pay taxes? Then don't work, don't have any income, and don't spend any money (that you don't have).

[kenberg]

Chas_P, on 2018-August-02, 19:27, said:

I didn't say they bought cars. I said they got driver licenses which automatically provides a photo ID and also automatically registered them to vote. What could be easier than that?

Let me take a stab at this, but phrased broadly. I have often posted my appreciation for free public education K-12, state supported universities, community colleges and so on. And of course I appreciate having a say on government through casting a ballot. I do also believe that people are, ultimately, responsible for themselves. Exceptions can be made for those with extreme mental or physical disorders. Now, how does this affect my thinking on voter registration?
I have never had an ounce of difficulty with voting. When I moved to a different congressional district 12 years ago I had to re-register. I had to change my driver's license. I can't say I remember whether I was able to do both at once or if they had to be done separately, but they were both trivial. I have never (I can't recall a time anyway) been asked for a photo ID when I go in to vote. But that's me. And probably that's most people (USAers)on this thread. Now imagine a woman leaving her abusive husband, not with planning but running at the moment. She goes somewhere, maybe a hospital. Then to a woman's shelter. Then to a relative or a friend for a short stay, Then somewhere else. And she is not confident about publicizing where she is. This person has problems I don't have. I would like her to be able to vote. Probably voting is not her immediate priority, but if she is up for doing it i would like her to be able to.

So I do not dismiss the need to prevent fraud, but I also think it is not always as easy as it sounds. My default view, meaning I am open to thinking otherwise, is that there should be a requirement to register before the day of voting. Going in early and saying who you are and seeing if your current living situation entitles you to vote in the precinct that you intend to seems right. I doubt many would fake it, it seems to me it would be way to risky. Of course there is always some nut. I just re-saw Jules and Jim, where Catherine drives a car off a bridge. Hard to anticipate and prevent that. But I think few would risk being caught. This registration should be easy to do, with plenty of locations and long hours. If then someone says "That's too much trouble" then that person is making a choice. This is where my "We should help, but people are responsible for themselves" view clicks in.

Here is another way of looking at it. I am ok with some sort of precaution. I object to precautions that appear to be designed to minimize the votes of people who would vote in a way the rules makers don't want. I also object to ignoring all precaution so as to maximize the votes of people who would vote the way the maximizer wants. So something reasonable. But I think it is an error to look at our own easy situation and say "Why can't everyone just do what we do?"

[awm]

A number of years ago, I had just moved to California and wanted to get my CA driving license. Since I already had a Maryland license from my previous home, I figured this would be pretty easy.

So I drove to the DMV, waited in line for an hour, got to the front and was told I need a passport or birth certificate to “confirm my identity” — my photo on the Maryland license was apparently insufficient (and my photo ID from Stanford identifying me as a grad student was also of no interest to them).

Like many Americans I don’t have my birth certificate (my parents, then living 3000 miles away had it). While I could ask them to mail it, this requires time and money and a good relationship with my parents. Fortunately I had all the above but many Americans do not. And even so, there is always the chance the certificate gets lost in the mail (which would leave me really screwed).

Fortunately for me, I did actually have a US passport (majority of Americans apparently don’t). So I went back the next day, waited another hour in line, and presented my MD license along with my passport. The lady working there looked at the passport, looked at me, and said “that’s not you.” Now what?

After a fair bit of arguing I convinced the lady to call over a coworker. He looked at the passport photo for a while and conceded that it *might* be me, and this was enough to get my license.

Anyway that was my experience as a young white male native English speaker, born in the US, in a pretty lenient state, with time and money and a passport available to me, and parents willing to help out if need be and an out of state ID in my hand. It’s pretty easy to imagine that things might be more difficult for people without all those advantages!

[Chas_P]

kenberg, on 2018-August-03, 06:45, said:

I object to precautions that appear to be designed to minimize the votes of people who would vote in a way the rules makers don't want.

So do I. Where do they exist?

[awm]

Chas_P, on 2018-August-03, 08:10, said:

So do I. Where do they exist?

Here’s an article: https://www.vox.com/...rly-voting-2016

Here are some populations that tend to vote Democratic and how they are typically targeted by Republican state government:

1. College students. Many do not have cars and have either no license or an out of state license, so valid voter ID can be tough. Of course college photo ID is typically not accepted (gun license is okay though, wonder why).
2. Poor people. Election Day being a workday already makes it tough for them. Republicans in the states make it tougher by reducing or eliminating early voting, making it hard to get an absentee ballot “without cause” and reducing the number of polling places in low income areas (so they basically have to miss work in order to vote, which they are unlikely to be able to afford).
3. African Americans and Latino Americans. States repeatedly purge names from the registration list. They claim to be removing people no longer eligible to vote, but inevitably there are thousands of “mistakes” who are inevitably people with non-white sounding names. Of course it’s “easy” to get re-registered but it can be a hassle especially because people don’t often find out they were de-registered until they try to vote! The “reduce the number of polling places” trick hits heavily African American regions hard.

None of this is really a secret — several prominent Republican politicians have boasted that new voter restrictions will help them win!

[johnu]

Another day, another 15 lies and misrepresentations in a single speech by Dennison

Dennison’s Inaccurate Claims About Highways, Immigration and Beyoncé From a Pennsylvania Rally

In defense of Dennison's inauguration small crowd size numbers, many of his supporters were saving up to go see concerts by Beyoncé, Jay-Z and Bruce Springsteen.

Dennison has made 3,251 false or misleading claims in 497 days

Through May of this year, the Washington Post has reported that Dennison has told 3251 lies or misleading statements since his inauguration. As the line in Jaws goes, you're going to need a bigger calculator.

[kenberg]

awm, on 2018-August-03, 08:04, said:

A number of years ago, I had just moved to California and wanted to get my CA driving license. Since I already had a Maryland license from my previous home, I figured this would be pretty easy.

So I drove to the DMV, waited in line for an hour, got to the front and was told I need a passport or birth certificate to "confirm my identity" — my photo on the Maryland license was apparently insufficient (and my photo ID from Stanford identifying me as a grad student was also of no interest to them).

Like many Americans I don't have my birth certificate (my parents, then living 3000 miles away had it). While I could ask them to mail it, this requires time and money and a good relationship with my parents. Fortunately I had all the above but many Americans do not. And even so, there is always the chance the certificate gets lost in the mail (which would leave me really screwed).

Fortunately for me, I did actually have a US passport (majority of Americans apparently don't). So I went back the next day, waited another hour in line, and presented my MD license along with my passport. The lady working there looked at the passport, looked at me, and said "that's not you." Now what?

After a fair bit of arguing I convinced the lady to call over a coworker. He looked at the passport photo for a while and conceded that it *might* be me, and this was enough to get my license.

Anyway that was my experience as a young white male native English speaker, born in the US, in a pretty lenient state, with time and money and a passport available to me, and parents willing to help out if need be and an out of state ID in my hand. It's pretty easy to imagine that things might be more difficult for people without all those advantages!

That's stunning. I simply have never had anything like this happen. I trust that everyone would agree that it shouldn't happen.

When I moved from Minnesota to Maryland I did something very dumb. I went into the DMV, surrendered my Minnesota license and expected to take a driver's test for my Maryland license. Oops. it was a written test. How many feet does it take to stop when you are traveling 55mph? That sort of stuff. There was no room to write in "I have sense enough not to drive close to the car in front of me". I have always been good at taking multiple choice exams in areas where I don't actually know anything, so I passed. But it was a little scary.

Anyway, it seems the right approach here is to fix the problem you describe, for you and for everyone.

[Chas_P]

johnu, on 2018-August-03, 04:01, said:

You probably won't believe this, but most of the blame for Obama's overly optimistic claims were because the Affordable Care Act wasn't as strong as it could have been. He dilly dallied around trying to build Republican consensus which was a complete waste of time. He gave up concessions to Republicans to try to get them to vote for the bill, but ultimately there were a combined 0, zero, zip, nada votes from Republicans in the House and Senate for this bill.

"Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage,” Gruber said. "And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really, really critical for the thing to pass."

[cherdano]

johnu, on 2018-August-03, 04:01, said:

You probably won't believe this, but most of the blame for Obama's overly optimistic claims were because the Affordable Care Act wasn't as strong as it could have been. He dilly dallied around trying to build Republican consensus which was a complete waste of time. He gave up concessions to Republicans to try to get them to vote for the bill, but ultimately there were a combined 0, zero, zip, nada votes from Republicans in the House and Senate for this bill.

To be fair, that's only half the story. He also had to make a lot of concessions to get the votes of Max Bauchus or, especially, Joe Lieberman, who personally killed the public option. (I hope every Democratic official who endorsed Joe Lieberman over Ned Lamont after he lost his primary will live in shame forever. Yes, they might not have been able to know he'd turn out *this bad*, but still "endorse the guy who gets your base enthusiastic over the guy who you've known for decades, but let's admit he is pretty slimy actually" shouldn't be so hard. Ok, I hope for a lot of things. I digress.)

[hrothgar]

FWIW, one of the members of the Presidential Advisory Committee on Election Integrity just published a report

http://paceidocs.sos...INAL.080318.pdf