[Jinksy]

---

Butler IMPs. Game isn't laydown, but at this vul we surely want to be in it. A 1♠ opening by west would be about a king stronger (lower limit) that a 2/1 1♠ opening. Double by either E or W would be takeout.

I still don't really have a strong feeling about this. Either hand could have been more optimistic, but it's easy to imagine different actions by either player going horribly wrong.

[eagles123]

East

[eagles123]

East has a 2425 9 count with great spots anx the big q!s and decides not to bother with a takeout x?!

[cherdano]

I don't understand how responder is supposed to judge if you can open 2S both with this and a 5224 10-count.

Still, East should make a takeout double.

[Jinksy]

cherdano, on 2015-September-05, 07:35, said:

I don't understand how responder is supposed to judge if you can open 2S both with this and a 5224 10-count.

Still, East should make a takeout double.

You can't. With only 5♠s, W would have a singleton.

[cherdano]

Jinksy, on 2015-September-05, 07:44, said:

You can't. With only 5♠s, W would have a singleton.

Well, 5134 doesn't make a big difference. The point is, the given hand is huge for spades opposite a doubleton support. Yet responder with a doubleton has to be careful because of the hands with 5-card spade suits.

[Jinksy]

Sure. Obviously the theory is you gain more from the opps' uncertainty than you lose from yours, which our experiences have borne out so far. I do think W is pretty close to a 1♠ opening, too - in 2/1, what would your first call be on KJ9xxxx xxx Axx - and how close a decision would that be?

[eagles123]

4 spades not close

[cherdano]

Jinksy, on 2015-September-05, 08:35, said:

Sure. Obviously the theory is you gain more from the opps' uncertainty than you lose from yours, which our experiences have borne out so far. I do think W is pretty close to a 1♠ opening, too - in 2/1, what would your first call be on KJ9xxxx xxx Axx - and how close a decision would that be?

Who cares about the theory in general. In this hand it would be your partnership who is losing. If you don't like to open 1♠, just open 4♠.

[Jinksy]

Added 4♠ to the poll.

[shyams]

Since I know these hands, I have a question on the bidding system itself.

As described by jinsky, in their system a 1♠ bid is approx. a King stronger than a 2♠ bid. Is this exclusively based on HCP? I ask because here West opened 2♠ with ♠KJ96432 ♥QJ4 ♦A42 ♣--
On the other thread posted by jinsky (link), East opened 1♠ with ♠AQ8752 ♥10 ♦K95 ♣KJ2.

Although the second hand has 13 HCP and the first has 11, my view is that both hands deserve the same "bucket" (either the 2 level or the 1 level). Happy to hear others' views as well.

[cherdano]

Well, there may be good news for fans of the Fantunes system. I would not be suprised if within a few weeks, many more details of their system will become available. Then we will all be able to understand much better the full power of their methods.

[Jinksy]

I've heard the same rumours. It doesn't interest me too much either way - I doubt they designed their whole system around the 'full power', and whether or not they did, it's been very effective for us.

[Jinksy]

shyams, on 2015-September-06, 04:19, said:

Since I know these hands, I have a question on the bidding system itself.

As described by jinsky, in their system a 1♠ bid is approx. a King stronger than a 2♠ bid. Is this exclusively based on HCP? I ask because here West opened 2♠ with [hand 1] ♠KJ96432 ♥QJ4 ♦A42 ♣--
On the other thread posted by jinsky (link), East opened 1♠ with [hand 2] ♠AQ8752 ♥10 ♦K95 ♣KJ2.

Although the second hand has 13 HCP and the first has 11, my view is that both hands deserve the same "bucket" (either the 2 level or the 1 level). Happy to hear others' views as well.

I think both are close, and what we'd open would vary depending on vul, seat, scoring and who was doing the opening (I was opener on the hand 1, my partner on hand 2).

I felt like hand 1 was too flawed for a 4-bid, having too much offensive and defensive potential, while at the same time needing too much from P to be confident of 4-level safety at the vul. I didn't like 1S for the opposite reason - not quite enough defensive potential to be comfortable sitting a high level X from P, not happy pulling it to a high level spade contract with no sign of support. Since we have a values-showing bid between the two, I decided to go with that - and had partner found the X, we would have landed in game, so I'm not convinced it was wrong yet. Third in, I'd prob have just bid 4♠.

On hand 2, I would have opened 1♠ opposite an unpassed hand, but third in I (very) slightly prefer 2♠. It's heavier than I'd normally want for the bid, but I need P to be a near max with just the right honours for game to be plausible, and when he has them a) he might still act over 2♠, and b) the opps might help us out by bidding Hs.

Cherdano's a far stronger player than me, so take these opinions with a grain of salt, but fwiw I imagine I've had a lot more experience bidding the system than anyone else in the thread.

[KurtGodel]

Opening 2♠ with this hand is silly, we just have too many tricks. Not making a takeout double with this hand is silly, we have loads of good cards and a great shape. I assign the blame as follows: 100% East and 100% West.

[gwnn]

BTW this East hand is one of the reasons why you shouldn't put in hands with 54 in the majors in 2S (I seem to recall you do include them and I think you should reconsider). But given that you have so much experience with this system and we're all rank novices compared to you in this regard, how can we comment on this auction in any meaningful way?

[Jinksy]

gwnn, on 2015-September-09, 02:22, said:

BTW this East hand is one of the reasons why you shouldn't put in hands with 54 in the majors in 2S (I seem to recall you do include them and I think you should reconsider). But given that you have so much experience with this system and we're all rank novices compared to you in this regard, how can we comment on this auction in any meaningful way?

I did not mean to sound like that

Are you saying you wouldn't X with the E hand if opener couldn't have four hearts?

[gwnn]

I was pretty sure you didn't but it's still fun to reply as if you did Sorry.

Yes that's what I'm saying. But I guess I would double if you can have 4 hearts, that way there are two very good scenarios available (we find spades or hearts). Maybe I'm cutting it too fine and I wouldn't double either way. No strong feelings on that except that I don't like the 2S opener at all, especially not when followed up by pass.

FD: I only played about 5 sessions with Fantunes so your assessment definitely applies to me

[cherdano]

Well, Ben Thompson agrees with not opening 7-card suits with a Fantunes 2S:

http://bridgewinners...unes/?cj=229720

[mgoetze]

cherdano, on 2015-September-06, 04:25, said:

Well, there may be good news for fans of the Fantunes system. I would not be suprised if within a few weeks, many more details of their system will become available. Then we will all be able to understand much better the full power of their methods.

I'm pretty disappointed so far... I've learned how to play Slawinski leads properly but good Fantunes bidding remains a mystery.