[mgoetze]

According to WJ05, responses of 2m to a Polish 1♣ are

Quote

...game-forcing and show at least 5 cards in the bid suit. The minimum strength of these responses is 12 HCP.

Having a 5-crd minor doesn’t mean responder has to show the suit: ♠ K32 ♥ QJ2 ♦ AQ ♣ J5432 favors a NT response, since the club suit is bad, and all suits are stopped. We bid a forcing 2N. With ♠ QJ32 ♥ KJ ♦ Q5432 ♣ KJ we bid 1♠. Chances for game appear to be in spades or NT. For 5D - partner with the weak variant doesn’t have 4 diamonds – we need too much extra.

Continuations over 2♣, 2♦ responses

Opener shows a 4-crd major (hearts, if both). With a strong club opener doesn’t jump, since the auction is game-forcing. Raising responder’s suit promises a 4-crd fit and no 4-crd major – it doesn’t have to have extras. Responder rebidding his suit is forcing...

OK, great. Some questions remain.

1. If opener has 5+ clubs and a 4 card major, does he bid 1♣-2♦-3♣? Does it matter how strong he is? (And presumably 1♣-2♣-2♦ shows a strong hand with diamonds? That would make this pretty much the only sequence where it's good to have this hand type...)

1a. If the answer to question 1 is to bid the clubs, how does opener then make a forcing raise of the major after 1♣-2♦-3♣-3M?

2. Say it goes 1♣-2♦-2♠. Should responder, with 4 hearts and no club stopper, bid 3♥, or is it better to rebid his minor even if it is only 5 cards?

2a. If the answer to question 2 is to rebid the hearts, how does opener (say he has a strong hand with 5♠4♥) then show a forcing heart raise? 1♣-2♦-2♠-3♥-4NT is surely needed as a quantitative slam invite, isn't it?

[straube]

I'm glad I'm not playing this.

I'd continue...

1C-2C, 2D=weak NT any
1C-2D, 2H=weak NT any

Or maybe...

1C-2C, 2D=bal, weak or strong
1C-2D, 2H=bal, weak or strong

[Kungsgeten]

1. If you want to keep things natural I would bid 2M with both weak and strong hands, and then perhaps responder could bid 2NT as "no fit" and opener can bid 3C with the strong hand (so canapé principle when holding 15+ clubs hand).

2. I think rebidding the minor should force opener to support the minor, even holding the weak hand and thus (probably?) going past 3NT. So if no slam interest I would say 3H is better. Then 4C (unbid suit) in your sequence should be a forcing heart raise. This may be problematic though if opener has the canapé hand with 4 spades and 5+ clubs.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-December-15, 12:08, said:

1. If you want to keep things natural I would bid 2M with both weak and strong hands, and then perhaps responder could bid 2NT as "no fit" and opener can bid 3C with the strong hand (so canapé principle when holding 15+ clubs hand).

2. I think rebidding the minor should force opener to support the minor, even holding the weak hand and thus (probably?) going past 3NT. So if no slam interest I would say 3H is better. Then 4C (unbid suit) in your sequence should be a forcing heart raise. This may be problematic though if opener has the canapé hand with 4 spades and 5+ clubs.

Isn't the most important thing to separate out the weak NT hands? It colors everything...

1C-2D, 2H-3H, 4H responder has 4H/5D and opener has a weak NT with 4 hearts

1C-2D, 2S-3H, 4H opener has a strong hand with spades and hearts and responder has five diamonds and four hearts. Four hearts here should be forcing because you will have 30+ points between you.

[mgoetze]

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not asking "how should I handle this if I were starting a serious Polish Club partnership". I'm asking "what should I do in practice given that I play Polish Club with pickup partners".

[Kungsgeten]

I would like share my solution, which I guess could be adopted to Polish club (we play Swedish club, so 15-16 with clubs is not included in our 1C opening). Our solution is to use 1NT and 2C as transfers. This removes many hands from the Polish 1D response, but adds the Polish natural 1NT response into 1D instead.

1C-1D = 0-6 any / 7-8 5+ minor no major / 7-10 NT no major

This makes 1D a negative bid which the weak NT hand may pass. Because of this you do not need to rebid 1M with 3 card suits quite as often.

1C-1NT or 2C = Transfer to minor, 9+ hcp

These transfers are GF vs the 15+ hand. Over these opener completes the transfer with the weak NT. With a strong hand opener can bid the step above minor as a strong relay, or bid natural (we play that 2NT shows the suit lost by the relay bid). We play that responder will have 12+ (GF) if holding a major, and if GF with both minors responder will always transfer to clubs first, because of space (so a transfer to clubs may be a four card suit if holding 5+ diamonds and 12+ hcp).

Playing this frees up your 2D response. We use it as multi (weak major or balanced slam interest vs weak NT). If you use 2M as strong jump shifts I would however use 2D as a "strong multi" instead, and use the following:

1C-2H = 11-15 NT, no major (INV or minimum GF)
1C-2S = INV both minors

Let's finish of with an example where responder transfers to diamonds:

1C-2C;
2D = Weak NT. You mays then play natural or use something artifical.
2H = GF Relay, continuations below.
2S = Natural GF
2NT = GF with hearts
3C = Natural GF
3D = Perhaps 15-17 with clubs and diamond support?
3M = Splinter
4C = Splinter

1C-2C; 2H---
2S = A 4 card major and 12+ hcp
2NT = 6+ diamonds and 12+ hcp
3C = 6+ diamonds + SPL and 9-11 hcp
3D = 4+ clubs and 9-10 hcp
3H = 5332 and 9-11 hcp
3S = 5332 and 16+ hcp
3NT = 6-7 diamonds without SPL, 9-11 hcp

With 12-15 and 5m332 we respond 2H to 1C. We also play that opener over most rebids can relay again to find out about singleton etc.

[Kungsgeten]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-15, 12:31, said:

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not asking "how should I handle this if I were starting a serious Polish Club partnership". I'm asking "what should I do in practice given that I play Polish Club with pickup partners".

Bummer that I saw this after writing my long response

[straube]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-15, 12:31, said:

I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not asking "how should I handle this if I were starting a serious Polish Club partnership". I'm asking "what should I do in practice given that I play Polish Club with pickup partners".

I see. ok then...

1) Sounds like your rebid 2M. If you don't find a major suit or diamond fit, you'll need to show clubs later to reveal that you have a big hand.
2) If responder is allowed to have 5H/6D, I would think 1C-2D, 2S-3H would promise that. If not, I'd expect a 6/4. With neither of those or 6D or a fit, I'd rebid 2N.
2a) If opener has 5S/4H then he has 18+? It's hard for me to imagine stopping in 4H, but I'm guessing that most would play 4H as nf, 4S as RKC hearts and 4N as quantitative.

[mgoetze]

Kungsgeten, on 2015-December-15, 12:44, said:

Bummer that I saw this after writing my long response

Well, thanks anyway, maybe I'll remember to look back if I ever do start another Polish/Swedish club partnership.

[straube]

Kungsgeten, I like your basic outline, especially how you use your 1D, 1N and 2C responses.

[Kungsgeten]

straube, on 2015-December-15, 13:35, said:

Kungsgeten, I like your basic outline, especially how you use your 1D, 1N and 2C responses.

Thanks! It is not an easy method (lots of artificial bids for some unfrequent sequences), but I am very pleased with it. Space is scarce in these sequences and to me the alternatives just didn't seem good enough. In many Swedish club systems 1C-2m is natural non-forcing (would be 7--11 in a Polish club context), 2H is INV+ with both minors and 2S is GF with single-suited minor or a balanced hand. Responding 1NT is to play (7--10 in Polish club context) vs the weak NT hand and thus responding 1D is a "pure" negative.

[perko90]

While it's certainly good practice in a standard auction to bid a longer minor before a 4cM with a game forcing hand, I don't think the same is true in PC. 1♣-2♦ is a well known awkward start to an auction in PC. Why complicate it more with the possibility of also having a side 4cM?
I think agreeing that 1♣-2♦ denies a 4cM is the simplest solution. I would rather have the problem of convincing ptr I have a longer minor and a GF hand after 1♣-1M than trying to untangle the "Do we have a 4-4 fit?" "Do we have a slam?" type Q's after 1♣-2♦.

[rhm]

deleted

[rhm]

This is one area where Polish club and WJ05 separate.
Polish club philosophy is Mafia (majors always first) but traditionally many did not play 1♣-2m as game forcing.
I play a sort of compromise:

1♣-2♣ responder forces to game and does not deny a 4 card major
1♣-2♦ responder forces to game and does deny a 4 card major

After 1♣-2♣

With 12-14:
Opener bids a 4 card major.
With no 4 card major opener chooses between 2NT (12-14) and 3♣ depending on club support and diamond stopper. (2♦ is reserved for stronger hands)

With 18 HCP and up

Opener bids and rebids a 5 card major
With no 5 card major opener bids 2♦ (18+) unless he wants to splinter. Over 2♦ responder will show a 4 card major if he has one.

Medium hands with great club support can choose between upgrading to 18+ hands (usually) or can raise clubs immediately

After 1♣ - 2♦

Bidding follows natural lines:

Since responder has denied a 4 card major, openers rebid in a major are initially stopper showing, denying a good holding in the other major (unless opener rebids the major showing 5+ and 18+ HCP). 2NT shows stopper in both majors
Only if opener rebids the major does he show the strong hand with a 5 card or longer major.
3♣ shows at least 5 clubs but is ambiguous to strength. Opener can of course raise diamonds, which is also ambiguous.

With the strong hand (18+) opener can either show a 5 card or longer major by bidding a major twice (bidding both majors shows at least 5-5), splinter or take control with 4♦ or bid the hand as if he were 12-14.
But in the latter case opener is required to bypass or make another bid over 3NT, which is indicated anyway with 12+ opposite 18+ HCP.

Rainer Herrmann

[perko90]

I agree that 1♣-2♣ does not need to deny a 4cM. Often enough the PC 1♣ opener will have real clubs and starting with a forcing raise (regardless of 4cMs) is the best way to have a constructive auction.

[B Psyches]

Not an expert on Polish club having never played it. Having spoken to and read thoughts by top class players on the topic I have garnered this:

1. Canapé style responses to 1♣ are generally good especially if in doubt. Ergo 1♣-2♣ and 1♣-2♦ deny a 4cM. This fits in with the principle that the higher you bid, in constructive auctions, the more descriptive your bid should be.

2. Although you are not asking for it the agreement that apparently wins most is 1♣-2♦ = A GF balanced hand. Gives you huge control in right siding, finding weaknesses not to mention uncontested like 1♣-1M-1N-3N become interesting. Does 2♦ deny a 4cM? If No, then is 2♦ with a 4333 or does 1♣-1M-1N-3N promise a flat 5cM and a strong preference for NT.

As to your specific questions:

1. Assume major has priority

2. Priority must be now is probably looking for NT. So
3♣/3♥= Semi-Natural possibly stop showing. So in short: Yes even with 3♥

2a. Bid 3♠. Whilst this could be 64 it probably will be interpreted as a waiting bid most days...... Partner can then bid 3N with the stop ask and Something higher with 4♥. This obviously creates the question 2.a.a what happens when one hand is 1453 and the other is 6313?

Notice that I think the problem with these questions is the systemic approach. You are jumping around in sequences where partners hand isn't known. Ergo space becomes unnecessarily cramped and you will always come out second to natural auctions starting 1♠-2♦.

[Siegmund]

Each of the several Polish variants I played, 1C-2C and 1C-2D both denied 4CM. I most commonly played them as F1, "inverted minor non-raises"... 1C-2C-2H would, for the moment, sound like a heart stopper fishing for a spade stopper, but 1C-2C-2H-any-3H would be 19+ with 5+ hearts.

Not saying that was a particularly good set of rebids; much as not everyone likes stopper-showing over inverted raises anymore, one might do something like designate one rebid for all the weak balanced hands and have all of 1C-2C-2H/2S/3C/3D show big hands.

I remain a big fan of majors-first.