[Jinksy]

Quote

You also lose when partner with 3-to-the-Q or 4 small can't take a joke :-).

If you're going to bid on this hand, you'd better have a partner who knows not to raise. But Darwin sorts that out for you - after you've burned through a few of the ones who can't resist a raise, you end up with whoever remains

[miamijd]

gwnn, on 2016-May-31, 15:27, said:

That just sounds suicidal. 2C really? When you know opener has 17-19 balanced? The upside of 2C is when opps get into some kind of a mess sorting out various strains (imagine our LHO having diamonds strong, our p raising clubs and our RHO bidding 3C over 2D,opener being 55 in the majors but having to distinguish it from 7 spades or 54 or 64 in the minors). When our LHO knows more or less the exact handtype of his/her partner it will be much easier for them to find their right strain (it could be defense against clubs). 2C is NOT pre-balance.

Sorry, but how do you know opener has a balanced hand? If it's 17-19 balanced, then yes, I would pass, because opener's hand is well-defined, and 2C isn't going to get in their way much. But most big club systems use 1c for all 16-17+ hands. It works wonderfully -- so long as the opponents are nice enough never to open their mouths. Interference, however, poses big problems, because it takes a lot of the systemic tools away.

In terms of getting doubled for penalty, that's actually more likely to happen when opener (playing a big club system) opens 1 of a major. Now he's 11-15 with 5+ of the major, so that his hand is very well-defined and responder can pass for penalties when it's right. It's very difficult to make a 2-level penalty double after a 1C opener, because responder has no idea what opener has.

In addition, your C are good enough you won't get Xed very often, anyway. In most big club systems, X by responder here would be 5-8; there is no way opener is going to pass. So responder will only pass with 0-4 (is he really then going to be strong enough to pass a reopening double?) or 9+ with strength in clubs (Qxxxx and a couple of cards on the side isn't a good penalty pass).

Accordingly, it has to be right to interfere with some number of clubs. At this vulnerability, I would bid only 2C; maybe partner can raise to 3. If NV, I would try 3C.

Also, the most effective defense against a big club is probably CRASH. It's very important to be able to show all two-suiters right away, and giving up X, 1d, and 1NT isn't a big price (those bids are next-to-useless anyway).

Cheers,
Mike

[gwnn]

miamijd, on 2016-June-01, 18:55, said:

Sorry, but how do you know opener has a balanced hand? If it's 17-19 balanced, then yes, I would pass, because opener's hand is well-defined, and 2C isn't going to get in their way much.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just using a common shortcut on these forums: I didn't quote the post but actually I was replying to the post directly above mine who was apparently advocating "pre-balancing" after:

1C-p-1D-p
1NT-2C

1NT could be 16-18 or 17-19. I just wrote 17-19 for dramatic effect.

But now that I re-read the post I wrote it is obviously super confusing. My bad.

My main point was that this "pre-balance" is suicidal, much worse than bidding 2C the round before. The round before, I don't like 2C but I also don't hate it. I personally wouldn't do it but it's just a question of where one draws the line and I don't feel like we can make much headway talking about where the line "should be."

[gwnn]

Also, I disagree that "the most effective defense is probably CRASH." It certainly is popular in some circuits and I think even some top players use it but certainly it's not a settled issue, not even with the "probably". Many top people seem to like Mathe (x majors 1NT minors).

[mycroft]

As far as defences go, I know that the holy grail is to get to 2♠ or higher in a fit before opener's rebid. Therefore, I don't tend to play systems that require responder to have "two fits" to bid at those levels. I give information and cuebids away to the opponents; fine. Yes, I have played wonder bids (and once, psychoSuction), but I don't consider them "good", just "fun and annoying". Yes, there are opponents playing a Strong Club against whom "fun and annoying" is a laudable goal, more so than "good", but that's another story.

I also know that overcalls < 1♠ don't hurt, and often help. You'd better get something back for them. X=Majors? Give them the most space only when we have the boss suits, lots of chance to Big Raise? Sounds like the best use of that bid to me. Plus we don't live in a massive strong club environment, so "easy to remember that one time a month" (and Mathe is certainly one of the easiest systems to remember) pays dividends that are hard to get back with any other system after that one time you showed majors or minors when you actually had diamonds, say.