[mr1303]

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What on earth do you do with this one?

If you open 2C, partner bids 2D. You do not play an artificial negative like 2H.

If you bid 3S (after 2C 2D), partner raises to 4.

[Jinksy]

I don't see how it can be wrong to open 2♣. We don't particularly fear the opps getting involved (although what's the vul/scoring?), and though we might drag P to the 6 level almost regardless of what he does, it gives us a chance of differentiating between a good/bad 7 (or maybe reaching a NT slam with better play than a suited one).

Over 2♦, we have plenty of room to bid 2♠, hoping to be able to rebid 3♦ and then 3(+)♠ if P doesn't offer a fit.

I don't like the suit-setting jump rebid of spades when P could easily have something like x xxxx KQxxx xxx.

[eagles123]

after your 2c 2d 3s 4s start i guess 6d should ask for 3rd round diamond control

[Cyberyeti]

eagles123, on 2016-September-14, 05:39, said:

after your 2c 2d 3s 4s start i guess 6d should ask for 3rd round diamond control

Something like that, we'd have to go thru the charade of Blackwood then bid 6♦ to do that, but 4♠ doesn't say much, particularly in spades, would be mildly embarrassing if partner had ♦Qx and a stiff trump.

If I played a second negative, I might just bid 2♠ to gather than info (if partner raises spades now, he actually has some which is useful info).

[The_Badger]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-14, 06:30, said:

Something like that, we'd have to go thru the charade of Blackwood then bid 6♦ to do that, but 4♠ doesn't say much, particularly in spades, would be mildly embarrassing if partner had ♦Qx and a stiff trump.

oh Cyberyeti! Let's be positive please It would be mildly embarrassing if partner had ♦Qx, a stiff trump, and either the ♣K or the♥K and we missed a grand slam!

There's 18 HCPs shared between the other three hands, and when no-one else has made a bid I tend to say, well they've got about 6 HCPs or so each. I work on that general assumption.

I personally like the sequence 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♠ (setting suit) - 4♠ - 5♦ - 5♠ - 6♦

If partner has enough nous he should surely realise that you have a solid suit, all the 1st round controls, as you haven't engaged RKCB, and that this second suit is the key to the final contract.

Anyone who doesn't want to be in at least a 6♠ contract with this rockcrusher is a bit timid in my personal opinion. Let partner make the final decision. I realise 7NT may be on, but i'll settle for 7♠: it's better than 6♠+1

[Jinksy]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-14, 06:30, said:

Something like that, we'd have to go thru the charade of Blackwood then bid 6♦ to do that, but 4♠ doesn't say much, particularly in spades, would be mildly embarrassing if partner had ♦Qx and a stiff trump.

Surely he should bid the grand on that, if you've specifically asked for support in diamonds. If you needed the king, you could have bid 5N.

[MrAce]

mr1303, on 2016-September-14, 04:13, said:

---

What on earth do you do with this one?

If you open 2C, partner bids 2D. You do not play an artificial negative like 2H.

If you bid 3S (after 2C 2D), partner raises to 4.

Here is an old idea.

2♣--2♦--3♠ (spade is confirmed - solid suit and no need to look for another trump)

Then responder bids;


3NT=I have no ace but I have K or Kings
4♣/♦/♥=Ace with their names
4♠=I have no ace no king
4NT=Ihave 2 aces of same color
5♣=2 Aces of same rank
5♦=I have 2 mixed aces (h+cl or spade+dia)

Over 4♠ opener bids 4 NT (obviously not asking aces or kings) and from there you go on to show your 3rd round controls starting from cheapest. (some play this asking for jacks)
Over 4♠ if opener bids a suit at 5 level, he is asking 3rd round on this specific suit.

Using this tool, you could bid 5♦ over 4♠ and can actually stay at 5 if your hand was

AKQJT9
AK
AKxx
x

[Cyberyeti]

Jinksy, on 2016-September-14, 09:52, said:

Surely he should bid the grand on that, if you've specifically asked for support in diamonds. If you needed the king, you could have bid 5N.

My point, how do you propose to dispose of your losing diamond on a trump lead ? And a lot of people lead a trump automatically.

[Cyberyeti]

The_Badger, on 2016-September-14, 09:40, said:

oh Cyberyeti! Let's be positive please It would be mildly embarrassing if partner had ♦Qx, a stiff trump, and either the ♣K or the♥K and we missed a grand slam!

There's 18 HCPs shared between the other three hands, and when no-one else has made a bid I tend to say, well they've got about 6 HCPs or so each. I work on that general assumption.

I personally like the sequence 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♠ (setting suit) - 4♠ - 5♦ - 5♠ - 6♦

If partner has enough nous he should surely realise that you have a solid suit, all the 1st round controls, as you haven't engaged RKCB, and that this second suit is the key to the final contract.

Anyone who doesn't want to be in at least a 6♠ contract with this rockcrusher is a bit timid in my personal opinion. Let partner make the final decision. I realise 7NT may be on, but i'll settle for 7♠: it's better than 6♠+1

He won't have a K, I already know that, he'd have cued it over 3♠, not bid 4♠.

6♦ asks for Q♦, it's what I'd bid with AKJx(x) for sure, just not sure it's right here

[Phil]

eagles123, on 2016-September-14, 05:39, said:

after your 2c 2d 3s 4s start i guess 6d should ask for 3rd round diamond control

In classic Walsh, 5D would.

[The_Badger]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-14, 13:56, said:

He won't have a K, I already know that, he'd have cued it over 3♠, not bid 4♠.

6♦ asks for Q♦, it's what I'd bid with AKJx(x) for sure, just not sure it's right here

hi Cyberyeti,

Apologies. I entirely agree with what you say. I did think about that hours after posting, but on this hand the entries to use a ♣K or ♥K are the cards that matter. As you rightly say, a 6♦ bid to establish the ♦Q is problematical, but it has more weight knowing possibly that you have an entry to discard a loser on one of dummy's kings.

I feel the original Wei Precision system would have wrapped up the bidding on this hand in a blink of an eye, having specialist control asking bids made by opener establishing key cards below the 6 level.

[rmnka447]

I like the 2 ♠ rebid instead of 3 ♠ also. Over 2 ♠, partner has to give you some information even if it is only a 2nd negative.

But partner could also raise ♠ indicating some spade length. That should let you bid to at least 6 ♠.

You may also be able to bid 3 ♦ to show the ♦ suit over a 2 NT or second negative 3 ♣ (cheapest suit, cheapest minor).

And partner could even show a ♦ feature like say Q10xxx.

[ggwhiz]

rmnka447, on 2016-September-15, 02:52, said:

I like the 2 ♠ rebid instead of 3 ♠ also.

Me too. Over anything but a second negative (a raise would be perfect) we can plutz around and decide which grand to play and still have an outside chance by making the slowest forcing bids available.

[helene_t]

rmnka447, on 2016-September-15, 02:52, said:

I like the 2 ♠ rebid instead of 3 ♠ also. Over 2 ♠, partner has to give you some information even if it is only a 2nd negative.

I don't see how partner's bid after our 2♠ rebid helps us, unless he shows values in diamonds. He could have as much as KQ in both rounded suits without providing any help for us. We need help in diamonds and we need at least a singleton spades, preferably a doubleton or the stiff jack.

I believe that if we have a trump-setting 3♠ bid available, we should use it. Hopefully we have agreed something like what Timo describes.

That said, just punting 6♠ is not terrible if we are not confident that we can elicit the info we need. He needs short, worthless diamonds AND a void spade for 6♠ to have no play and he needs ♦QJ AND spade tolerance for 7 to be cold. So most of the time 6♠ is a reasonable spot.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2016-September-15, 08:05, said:

I don't see how partner's bid after our 2♠ rebid helps us, unless he shows values in diamonds. He could have as much as KQ in both rounded suits without providing any help for us. We need help in diamonds and we need at least a singleton spades, preferably a doubleton or the stiff jack.

I believe that if we have a trump-setting 3♠ bid available, we should use it. Hopefully we have agreed something like what Timo describes.

That said, just punting 6♠ is not terrible if we are not confident that we can elicit the info we need. He needs short, worthless diamonds AND a void spade for 6♠ to have no play and he needs ♦QJ AND spade tolerance for 7 to be cold. So most of the time 6♠ is a reasonable spot.

Depending on your agreed methods, he could conceivably have void, KQJ10xx, xx, xxxxx if you bid 3♠ you give him nowhere to go.

A singleton spade is no use on a trump lead also.

The advantage of a 2♠ rebid are that if partner raises, you know he actually has spades, which means that he has a late entry unless they're 3-0 so curly suit Ks are useful.

[Jinksy]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-14, 13:52, said:

My point, how do you propose to dispose of your losing diamond on a trump lead ? And a lot of people lead a trump automatically.

Gotcha. Well, that's part of why I prefer to start with 2♠. On this kind of holding I'm willing to insist on it as trumps in theory, but much less keen when there's a second denomination we could plausibly be better off in. If I get to rebid 3♦, I should get more of a sense of P's spade holding than if I insist on them immediately.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-15, 08:19, said:

Depending on your agreed methods, he could conceivably have void, KQJ10xx, xx, xxxxx if you bid 3♠ you give him nowhere to go.

A singleton spade is no use on a trump lead also.

The advantage of a 2♠ rebid are that if partner raises, you know he actually has spades, which means that he has a late entry unless they're 3-0 so curly suit Ks are useful.

You could have a point if you play such a poor system and poor hand evaluation skills that made you start with 2♦ at the first place.

[rmnka447]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-15, 08:19, said:

Depending on your agreed methods, he could conceivably have void, KQJ10xx, xx, xxxxx if you bid 3♠ you give him nowhere to go.

A singleton spade is no use on a trump lead also.

The advantage of a 2♠ rebid are that if partner raises, you know he actually has spades, which means that he has a late entry unless they're 3-0 so curly suit Ks are useful.

Exactly!!

If partner raises, partner can have just about any ♦ distribution and at least 6 ♠ is odds on. With 3 ♠ in partner's hand, you'll have 10 ♠ meaning ♠ are likely to break (2-1 78% probability) and you'll retain a trump in dummy to ruff a potential ♦ loser.

Even if responder shows a 2nd negative after 2 ♠, you may still be able to tell responder enough to find slam. After,

2 ♣ - 2 ♦
2 ♠ - 2 NT/3 ♣ (2nd negative - cheapest suit/cheapest minor)
3 ♦ - 3 ♠
5 ♠ - ?

responder with something like xx xxx Qxx xxxxx ought to be able to realize how golden the ♦ Q is.

And even better is when after 2 ♠, partner finds the once in a blue moon splinter of 4 ♦. Now, bidding the the grand is easy.

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2016-September-15, 13:30, said:

You could have a point if you play such a poor system and poor hand evaluation skills that made you start with 2♦ at the first place.

99% of brits in clubs will. They play 2♦ negative, and positive shows an ace and a king.

[MrAce]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-September-15, 17:54, said:

99% of brits in clubs will. They play 2♦ negative, and positive shows an ace and a king.

Yea but why is the British club standard (or even an ACBL/Turkish/Greek etc club standard) is our focus on debating a hand in an international Bridge site?

We should stress the importance of starting with a semi solid 6 card major suit, especially when we have a side 5 card suit and we really do not want to lose any space in the process. It is so bad to start 2♦ even if we assume that this will be a friendly auction and LHO will not bid something over 2♦. Or we may see the next turn at very high level.