[kenberg]

Suppose the uncontested auction begins 1NT(15-7)-3C(Puppet)-3S(five spades).

Suppose you have a big hand and slam is possible. There can be various ways for this to happen. We will assume that if partner opens 1NT with five spades then he has no other suit longer than three.

A. Maybe you have three card spade support. You wish to agree that spades are trump, and you probably hope to bid rkc at some point.

B. You might have 2 or fewer spades (and thus three or possibly four hearts for your 3C call). Let's say you are 2=3=4=4 and you wish to invite 6NT on strength.

C. Or maybe you are 2=3=5=3. Can we explore for a diamond slam?

There are probably some other possibilities.

I have looked a bit and I have not seen this addressed. Perhaps the following?

We just give up on showing a minor naturally after 1NT-3C-3S. A bid of 4H/D/C is defined as a cue, accepting spades as trump. This would allow a cue, followed by 4NT, to be rkc, so the direct sequence 1NT-3C-3S-4NT can be a natural invite as in case B. The main problem I see is that this is not an everyday auction so I can imagine a memory lapse after 1NT-3C-3S-4NT. natural. Natural. But will I remember?

Or maybe a direct 4H over 3S should be rkc? The 3C call will not be on five hearts, and NT opener will not have four hearts with his five spades (I wouldn't anyway) so there is no purpose for a natural 4H.


Anyway, what is the general practice here?

[Zelandakh]

I think A can make a cue bid now, B should have invoked Baron or a quantitative 4NT on the previous round and C begins with normal Stayman (or Baron if available). But as I do not play 3♣ as Puppet in any partnership you can take those suggestions with more than a pinch of salt.

[Phil]

"Standard" is the other major to start slam bidding since you need 4N as quant.

However, since 1N 3♣ 3♠ 4♥ sucks (no room for cues, last train, etc..), switch 4♣ and 4♥.

[Zelandakh]

Do you really need 4m to show a minor suit here Phil? That strikes me as extremely inefficient if that is really the case.

[ggwhiz]

I don't play puppet here or over 2nt but play a simple impossible major style that would work the same over a 2nt opener anyway.

4nt is quantitative
4♥ agrees spades and opener can choose rkc or cue or bid 4♠ after which I can do the same
4m is natural with quantitative 4nt values and 5 or occasionally more pieces. 4nt by opener next (instead of a cue) is an offer to play there and responder can bid something or other with a serious hand but it's undiscussed.

[nige1]

kenberg, on 2016-October-12, 08:45, said:

Suppose the uncontested auction begins 1NT(15-7)-3C(Puppet)-3S(five spades).
Suppose you have a big hand and slam is possible. There can be various ways for this to happen. We will assume that if partner opens 1NT with five spades then he has no other suit longer than three.

A. Maybe you have three card spade support. You wish to agree that spades are trump, and you probably hope to bid rkc at some point.
B. You might have 2 or fewer spades (and thus three or possibly four hearts for your 3C call). Let's say you are 2=3=4=4 and you wish to invite 6NT on strength.
C. Or maybe you are 2=3=5=3. Can we explore for a diamond slam?

There are probably some other possibilities. I have looked a bit and I have not seen this addressed. Perhaps the following?
We just give up on showing a minor naturally after 1NT-3C-3S. A bid of 4H/D/C is defined as a cue, accepting spades as trump. This would allow a cue, followed by 4NT, to be rkc, so the direct sequence 1NT-3C-3S-4NT can be a natural invite as in case B. The main problem I see is that this is not an everyday auction so I can imagine a memory lapse after 1NT-3C-3S-4NT. natural. Natural. But will I remember? Or maybe a direct 4H over 3S should be rkc? The 3C call will not be on five hearts, and NT opener will not have four hearts with his five spades (I wouldn't anyway) so there is no purpose for a natural 4H. Anyway, what is the general practice here?

After 1/2N - 3♣ - 3♠ - ?? Our (Pinocchio) variant is...

• 3N = S/O. To play.
• 4♣ = ART. 5+ ♦s. (Then 4♠ = 0-2 ♦s. Other responses = Key card for ♦s).
• 4♦ = ART 5+ ♣s. (With similar responses).
• 4♥ = TRF. S/T. 3+ ♠s. (Then 4N = RKC for ♠s).
• 4♠ = S/O. To play.
• 4N = INV. Quantitative,

[wank]

just don't bid 5 card stayman on slammy hands. opener has enough space to show the 5th card in their suit if you use normal stayman.

1NT-2C-2H-3C-3H-4D sets hearts

5 card stayman over 1NT isn't for slams. it's for bidding the right game and hiding opener's major holdings on those game hands.

[kenberg]

wank, on 2016-October-12, 11:14, said:

just don't bid 5 card stayman on slammy hands. opener has enough space to show the 5th card in their suit if you use normal stayman.

1NT-2C-2H-3C-3H-4D sets hearts

5 card stayman over 1NT isn't for slams. it's for bidding the right game and hiding opener's major holdings on those game hands.

I am leaving this first part as is, since I am still uncertain, but I have been thinking, see below.

About the 3C: Artificial? Or Maybe Artificial?
After 1NT-2C-2H-3C, as I play, partner would expect me to have four spades and some sort of length in clubs. He would bid his spades now if he had them, or with four clubs he would raise clubs. In theory I could have bid 1NT-2C-2H-3C having both clubs and four card heart support, planning to bid 4H next time, but in reality I am not currently playing with anyone I would try that with. At any rate, after 3C partner would raise clubs if he had clubs.

Are you saying that we would give this meaning up?

My further thinking: I open 1NT with a five card major only if I have no more than three cards in each of the other suits. Thus, after 1NT-2C-2H-3C, I would never be faced with a choice between either raising to 4C on my four card club support or else showing my fifth heartt by rebidding 3H. So the raise of 3C to 4C, not only shows four card club support, it also shows that the 2H response was on exactly four.
This might work.Or at least it might help. More thought needed.

[wank]

in my example clubs was supposed to be responder's 5 card suit so he could bid that naturally.

if opener is 4-4 in the majors you bid 1nt-2c-2h-3c-3S-4NT to invite naturally with 5C with no major fit. the rule for 4NT being not keycard is to initiate keycard you always have to show a strong raise first, i.e. 1nt-2c-2H-3c-3s-4d would set spades.

you don't really need a plethora of cuebids. with 2 balanced hands, slam bidding is more quantitative than anything even in a suit.

if responder is 4-4 in the minors, yes you need to start with 5 card stayman, you can bid 1NT-3C-3D-4H to say you're no longer interested in the majors once opener denied 5, then you could play 4S shows clubs and 5C shows diamonds and 4NT no fit. yes 4441 shapes are awkward then, but they often are. that's why people often reserve a particular bid (3M?) for them.

[kenberg]

Ok. I have thought through some other cases and it seems this works. So with a slam oriented hand, skip Puppet.
I like this because any of the things I was thinking of would have the danger of a memory glitch in the infrequent times when It arose.

[Phil]

Zelandakh, on 2016-October-12, 09:08, said:

Do you really need 4m to show a minor suit here Phil? That strikes me as extremely inefficient if that is really the case.

Yes, that's how you would bid a 5m332M hand with invitational strength.

[kenberg]

Phil, on 2016-October-12, 14:15, said:

Yes, that's how you would bid a 5m332M hand with invitational strength.

I see. After 1NT-2C-2H-3C partner is going to think I have five clubs and four spades, andit is going to be tough to straighten it out. He will, if he has four spades to go with his four hearts, but 3S over 3C. With discussion, I suppose I could bid 3NT over the 3S to say "Just joking about the spades" but he still will not know which minor I have. So with the shape you suggest, I had better do something else. Like start with 3C.

I am glad I brought this up, I do not think it is all well known.

I'll keep reading these replies. Thanks everyone.

[Phil]

kenberg, on 2016-October-12, 14:58, said:

I see. After 1NT-2C-2H-3C partner is going to think I have five clubs and four spades, andit is going to be tough to straighten it out. He will, if he has four spades to go with his four hearts, but 3S over 3C. With discussion, I suppose I could bid 3NT over the 3S to say "Just joking about the spades" but he still will not know which minor I have. So with the shape you suggest, I had better do something else. Like start with 3C.

I am glad I brought this up, I do not think it is all well known.

I'll keep reading these replies. Thanks everyone.

And 6m (322) youd transfer and bid 3N/4N

[aawk]

I never get why you would play 2♣ as stayman in combination with 3♣ as puppet.

If you make 2♣ puppet with a few adjustments all your problems are solved.

1nt - 2♣ - ??

2♦ = no 5 card major
2♥/♠ = 5 card ♥/♠
no other response possible

1nt - 2♣ - 2♦ - ??

pass = 5 card ♦ 0-7 HCP (with at least 2-2 in majors so you can pass if partner showed a 5 card major)
2♥ = 4 card ♥ and 4 card ♠ still possible, invit or better
2♠ = 4 card ♠ no 4 card ♥ , invit or better
2nt = invite was looking for 5 card ♥/♠
3♣/♦ = slam invit with 5+ card ♣/♦ + 4 card ♥/♠
3♥/♠ = smolen or revers smolen with 5-4 in the majors
3nt = to play was looking for 5 card ♥/♠

1nt - 2♣ - 2♦ - 3♣/♦ - ??

3♥ = 4 card ♥ 2-3 card in partners minor
3♠ = 4 card ♠ 2-3 card in partners minor
3nt = minimum denies 4 card ♥/♠ or a maximum with fit in partners minor
rest = maximum and slamforcing forcing for partners minor (could hold 4 card ♥/♠ if you got a 4-5 card fit)


1nt - 2♣ - 2♥ - ??

2nt = invite
3♣/♦ = slam invit with 5+ card ♣/♦ (4 card ♠ possible)
3♥ = invite 3+ card ♥
3♠ = slam invite for ♥
3nt = to play
4♥ = to play
4♣/♦/♠ = cue slamforcing for ♥
4nt = quanti


1nt - 2♣ - 2♠ - ??

2nt = invite
3♣/♦ = slam invit with 5+ card ♣/♦ (4 card ♥ possible)
3♥ = slam invite for ♠
3♠ = invite 3+ card ♠
3nt = to play
4♠ = to play
4♣/♦/♥ = cue slamforcing for ♠
4nt = quanti

What do you give up playing this way ?

If you hold a 4-4 fit in a major it is not always possible to let the 1nt opener play the contract.


What do you gain ?

You can introduce a 5 card ♦ with 0-7 HCP (with tolerance for a 5 card major) and land in 2♦/♥/♠ instead of playing 1nt.

You can ask for a 5 card major if you hold a invite or better (invite not possible with 3c as puppet).

You can make a differance between a slam invite or slam forcing hand if partner shows a 5 card ♥/♠.

If you play the loosing trick count there is even more possible with 2c as puppet.

[Zelandakh]

aawk, on 2016-October-13, 04:06, said:

If you make 2♣ puppet with a few adjustments all your problems are solved.

This is also my choice but I would hardly say that "all your problems are solved" from this. In your scheme in particular, you are both leaking a huge amount of information and wrong-siding most contracts, which is arguably a worse set of problems than those that have been solved. There are actually better Puppet structures around if you search for them that limit the issues but I know of no 1NT structure that offers absolutely everything at once.

[bb116]

I play 4♣ after stayman and transfers as trump setter and rkc. So in a puppet auction, 1NT-3♣-3♠(5♠)4♣=rkc in ♠ saving 4NT for quanitative. If I had a minor /major hand like xxxx x xx xxxxxx then 2♣stayman and 3♣to any response -with the agreement it is forcing.

[Zelandakh]

bb116, on 2016-October-13, 06:02, said:

I play 4♣ after stayman and transfers as trump setter and rkc.

This is a popular agreement but you give up direct splinters to have it. You can get around it over hearts by using 3♠ as a condensed splinter but that removes some bidding room and does not work for spades. Moreover, it is usually far more important to have control bids than a cheaper Keycard (Gerber) so the trade-off is often not a very clever one. Have you considered using 4♣ to start a cue auction and 4♦ as keycard asking? Or even all of 4♣, 4♦ and 4♥ as cue bids? Do you really believe Gerber is better in this context?

[aawk]

Zelandakh, on 2016-October-13, 05:50, said:

This is also my choice but I would hardly say that "all your problems are solved" from this. In your scheme in particular, you are both leaking a huge amount of information and wrong-siding most contracts, which is arguably a worse set of problems than those that have been solved. There are actually better Puppet structures around if you search for them that limit the issues but I know of no 1NT structure that offers absolutely everything at once.

You say that most contract are wrong-siding.

If you got a game forcing hand or better it is not a big problem if you got 10+ HCP so the following hands remain which could be in the wrong hand.

1nt - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - (1nt opener holds a 4 card ♥ and you got 8-9 HCP)

1nt - 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ - (1nt opener holds a 4 card ♠ and you got 8-9 HCP)

In all other cases the 1nt opener will play in the majors or you got at least 10+ HCP.

The biggest gain is the 5 card ♦ with 0-7 HCP. If you hold a xx5x pattern you rather play 2♦ (or 2♥/♠) then 1nt.

After a 1♣/♦/1♥, 2♦/♥/♠ (weak) openings bid you also play wrong-siding with 6+ HCP if you don't play conventions to counter this problem.

Trying to counter the wrong-siding problem you have to give up a lot aswell and you need a lot of extra conventions. Not a problem if you are a expert but a lot of ballast for 90 % of players.

[Caitlynne]

I know this is not what you want to hear, but the best way to handle this is to use better methods. You are already at the 3M level and not only have you yet to confirm a fit, but also you don't know whether the fit that only one partner knows about it is adequate for slam purposes!

There is a reason why few people play a 3C response to 1NT as Puppet Stayman.

[Zelandakh]

Caitlynne, on 2016-October-13, 10:13, said:

There is a reason why few people play a 3C response to 1NT as Puppet Stayman.

You're joking, right?