[miamijd]

jogs, on 2016-November-03, 12:57, said:

Qxxx xxxx Kxx xx

I think this is a 5♥ call.

Not even close. Pass in a flash.

[miamijd]

Phil, on 2016-November-03, 17:49, said:

This thread has lost its collective mind.

5H shows a really good hand! JDonn's rule for pulling a double at the five level is a "good weak 2 (or better").

If partner opened a weak 2h would you really be parking this in game?

5H doesn't show a really good hand in expert standard. It shows a hand that thinks 5H will be better than defending 5C.

So

Qxxx T9xxxxs x x

You really think you want to pass 5C here?

[Jinksy]

miamijd, on 2016-November-03, 11:41, said:

Qxxx xxxxxx Kx x

Qxxx T9xxxxs x x

Pass 5♣x on both.

Partner has to double on most strong hands that aren't so distributional they can bid their own suit (or cuebid). So if you bid 5♥, you might well find him/her with AKJxx x AQJx AQx (or substantially worse).

Part of the reasoning PK gave for needing playing strength to pull is so you have a reasonable chance at bidding your slams.

[MrAce]

I think suggesting bidding 5♥ with only good hands over DBL means = We can not play at 5 level. We either pass or bid slam or grandslam.

I would bid 5 on any 6+ card and 0 hcp.

My goal is not to bid the only hands where pd can bid slam or grandslam. My priority is to reach to par as much as possible.

Especially the way Americans open 5 minor, which is as rare as seeing a unicorn compared to Europeans, because Americans also love to open 4m as natural, passing double wins much less than it is supposed to.

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2016-November-03, 10:28, said:

partner bid an empty heart suit?, something is not right, and I would need to know my partner to know what is he thinking about. My first instinct is to bid 7, or at least try it.

Yeah pd has

AQx
Txxxxxx
Jx
x

[Phil]

miamijd, on 2016-November-03, 18:14, said:

5H doesn't show a really good hand in expert standard. It shows a hand that thinks 5H will be better than defending 5C.

So

Qxxx T9xxxxs x x

You really think you want to pass 5C here?

Yes I do and it isn't close.

This is the type of hand where you can expect a reopening x from partner, and then you can bid 5♥. If partner passes 5♣, you will get a small plus and while its possible you can take 11 tricks, its a huge underdog if partner cannot reopen. Furthermore, there needs to be some definition to a 5♥ call, since some posters seem to imply its OK to make the call on a 12 count or a 0 count.

[msjennifer]

Pass.Having ni idea whatsoever what partner has got,it's no use going ahead

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2016-November-03, 21:54, said:

Yes I do and it isn't close.

This is the type of hand where you can expect a reopening x from partner, and then you can bid 5♥. If partner passes 5♣, you will get a small plus and while its possible you can take 11 tricks, its a huge underdog if partner cannot reopen. Furthermore, there needs to be some definition to a 5♥ call, since some posters seem to imply its OK to make the call on a 12 count or a 0 count.

It is not close for you. You would be amazed of the names who passes this 5♥ and who advocates bidding 5♥ with many shapely hands. They disagree with your explanation of JDonn's rule. I mean not only disagree but STRONGLY disagree. There are many shapely hands for them to bid 5♥ 3721 2650 etc etc without needing any beans over 5♣ dbl. And that is how I been bidding over the double of my partner at 4 or 5 level. Yes, what JDonn says make sense if you are bidding with an 6322 hand.

And ....are you sure you are looking at the same diagram I am looking? What reopening X are you talking about? Pd already doubled 5♣ and if you pass, it is over. Nobody will reopen it bro!
I knew from your comments that something just does not add up.

[Kaitlyn S]

Phil, on 2016-November-03, 21:54, said:

Yes I do and it isn't close.

This is the type of hand where you can expect a reopening x from partner, and then you can bid 5♥. If partner passes 5♣, you will get a small plus and while its possible you can take 11 tricks, its a huge underdog if partner cannot reopen. Furthermore, there needs to be some definition to a 5♥ call, since some posters seem to imply its OK to make the call on a 12 count or a 0 count.

I think you answered what you would do directly over 5C and the question was meant to be what you do over 5C doubled by partner.

[Kaitlyn S]

Phil, on 2016-November-03, 21:54, said:

Yes I do and it isn't close.

This is the type of hand where you can expect a reopening x from partner, and then you can bid 5♥. If partner passes 5♣, you will get a small plus and while its possible you can take 11 tricks, its a huge underdog if partner cannot reopen. Furthermore, there needs to be some definition to a 5♥ call, since some posters seem to imply its OK to make the call on a 12 count or a 0 count.

I think you answered what you would do directly over 5C and the question was meant to be what you do over 5C doubled by partner.

Nobody bids with this hand directly over 5C, do they?

[miamijd]

Phil, on 2016-November-03, 21:54, said:

Yes I do and it isn't close.

This is the type of hand where you can expect a reopening x from partner, and then you can bid 5♥. If partner passes 5♣, you will get a small plus and while its possible you can take 11 tricks, its a huge underdog if partner cannot reopen. Furthermore, there needs to be some definition to a 5♥ call, since some posters seem to imply its OK to make the call on a 12 count or a 0 count.

Reopening X from partner? Huh? Partner has doubled 5C and you have to pass for penalties or take out to 5H. Passing for penalties will lose a lot more often than it will win, despite what Josh Donn may say.

[mike777]

edit

This thread has lost its collective mind.

5H shows a really good hand! JDonn's rule for pulling a double at the five level is a "good weak 2 (or better").

If partner opened a weak 2h would you really be parking this in game?


Interesting Phil I had not heard of this before, thanks for the post.

[Phil]

MrAce, on 2016-November-04, 08:25, said:

It is not close for you. You would be amazed of the names who passes this 5♥ and who advocates bidding 5♥ with many shapely hands. They disagree with your explanation of JDonn's rule. I mean not only disagree but STRONGLY disagree. There are many shapely hands for them to bid 5♥ 3721 2650 etc etc without needing any beans over 5♣ dbl. And that is how I been bidding over the double of my partner at 4 or 5 level. Yes, what JDonn says make sense if you are bidding with an 6322 hand.

And ....are you sure you are looking at the same diagram I am looking? What reopening X are you talking about? Pd already doubled 5♣ and if you pass, it is over. Nobody will reopen it bro!
I knew from your comments that something just does not add up.

Yes, I misread the auction - I thought partner had another turn.

What big names are you talking about Timo? I don't see a BW poll that asks this question. Maybe I will make one myself.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2016-November-04, 18:39, said:

Yes, I misread the auction - I thought partner had another turn.

What big names are you talking about Timo? I don't see a BW poll that asks this question. Maybe I will make one myself.

I asked myself Phil. Among them was Richard, Jim Munday, Ira, Tokay and Thor.

You must be talking about this poll...

http://bridgewinners...m-2-xw95b1xovb/

So far 100% of people bid 5♥, including JDonn!

[nige1]

MrAce, on 2016-November-05, 02:07, said:

I asked myself Phil. Among them was Richard, Jim Munday, Ira, Tokay and Thor. You must be talking about this poll...

http://bridgewinners...m-2-xw95b1xovb/

So far 100% of people bid 5♥, including JDonn!

Holding ♠Q x x x ♥ T x x x x x x ♦ x ♣ x, (♥T but no ♥9), when partner doubles 5♣, Mr Ace bids 5♥ and so would many of us. But we would also bid 5♥ on stronger hands.
Opposite ♠ K J x ♥ A K Q J x ♦ A Q x x ♣ K, you need quite a lot to make a slam, but the 5-level is a "sixpence" and, IMO, partner is more likely to hold a slam-suitable candidate. It's a question of frequency and judgement. On this occasion, Mr Ace judges better and pass is the winning action.

[Phil]

Yes, I was surprised by the poll. As I said over there, 74 is pretty tempting. Maybe I'll wait a few months and post a slightly different auction where we have a weak hand and we are 64

[Jinksy]

Does anyone have an email address for Phil King? He doesn't seem to check these forums any more, but now I really want to hear his input on this question.

[Jinksy]

I ran into PK last night, and quizzed him about this thread - I hope he won't mind me posting his view as well as I can remember it here:

• He would bid 5♥ if not on the bridgewinners hand, then on one not too dissimilar from it, given the extreme shape (he gave an example of an extreme weakish hand on which he would pull that unfortunately I can't remember )
  
• He would still raise 5♥ to 6♥ (not looking for a grand), rating P to have a strong hand sufficiently often to justify it
  
• He thinks (not 100% I've got the reasoning here right) that if you don't double on a lot of hands where a slightly less extreme version of the bridgewinners hand would have no play in 5♥, you open yourself to exploitation from aggressive 5-level bidders who will play undoubled costing you a game, or if you play the X as particularly takeout oriented you let yourself get pushed into unmakeable 5-level contracts by the same aggressive bidding when their contract was surely going off. His impression is that such aggression is more common in Europe than North America, possibly explaining people from the latter's greater tendency to want to pull the X

[lamford]

Jinksy, on 2016-November-05, 10:15, said:

Does anyone have an email address for Phil King? He doesn't seem to check these forums any more, but now I really want to hear his input on this question.

As do I. Especially as he has a large database of top hands.

[Jinksy]

Did you see the post immediately above yours?