[rmnka447]

ggwhiz, on 2017-February-04, 08:37, said:

I played weak NTs for a year only to learn how to play against them because Kokish et al were just down the road and frequent opponents.

Kokish once said that the real strength of them was when you opened something else, I guess assuming some lost part score battles and good opponents that compete against it effectively vs. the efficiency of showing unbalanced hands? In those days passing partners weak NT promised some values, never alerted or disclosed and 4th chair often stepped in when they shouldn't.

Kokish, of course, was right. The big gain was over 1 m openers which have a higher percentage of strong (15+) hands. Some minimum sounding sequences are redefined as stronger to reflect this different reality. As a result, there was a gain in some game bidding accuracy and especially minor slam bidding.

[rmnka447]

msjennifer, on 2017-February-04, 05:24, said:

If 2H is to play then I shall first ask them what are their 2C/2D after their partner opens an11/14 NT.?A lot of information can then be obtained about the 2H bidders hand and accordingly one can decide whether to make a penalty double assuming "this and that" with ones partner.Since no clarification has been given except " to play" an answer given sometimes when trying to hide some information and mislead the opponents,and since it is an IMP event I shall always PASS firmly rather than playing in a 3/4 miserable 2Sx contract and going down the river.

Some weak NTers choose to use transfers, preferring to have the lead into the strong hand.

Other simply bid 2 M to play with 5+ M cards and less than invitational values. In predominantly Strong NT regions, this simple bid keeps the contract in line with the field where most openers are bidding 1 m and responders are bidding 1 M followed by 2 M over opener's rebid. Nothing's "hidden", it's just that the nature of the auction gives you less information.

In our case, 2 ♣ is plain ordinary Stayman. But 2 ♦ is artificial start of a 2 suited takeout (August 2 ♦) of NT which is normally a run out, but can be up to game going values when 5-5 in the majors. Don't know how much that would help in deciding to what to do with a 2 M bid though.

[dave_beer]

It is close but two things sway me to pass: I have only 3-card ♠ support and I have ♥Ax. If I had a 4th ♠ or ♥xx and an ace someplace else I would double.

[silvr bull]

ggwhiz, on 2017-February-04, 08:37, said:

Kokish once said that the real strength of them was when you opened something else

Another strong value of 12-14 NT openings is that it makes life difficult and risky for the opps (as shown in this thread) and easy for responder to know what to do. Opening 1m to rebid 1 NT with 12-14 balanced, in contrast, makes it easy for the opps to overcall, and difficult for partner to know what to do until opener can clarify his hand description.

ggwhiz, on 2017-February-04, 08:37, said:

passing partners weak NT promised some values, never alerted or disclosed

I see no more reason to alert responder's pass (after a 12-14 NT open) as showing some values than to alert that I am more or less sane when I sit down to the table. Just as I would not pass with xxxx xxx xxx xxx after a 15-17 NT open (an automatic 2C takeout before LHO can double), I would not pass a 12-14 NT open with xxxx Qxx xxx Jxx. Getting out of 1 NT before the double is an obvious part of the game.

[Zelandakh]

silvr bull, on 2017-February-04, 23:57, said:

Another strong value of 12-14 NT openings is that it makes life difficult and risky for the opps (as shown in this thread) and easy for responder to know what to do. Opening 1m to rebid 1 NT with 12-14 balanced, in contrast, makes it easy for the opps to overcall, and difficult for partner to know what to do until opener can clarify his hand description.

It is often written/said that a 1NT preempts both sides. The upside is above, the downside is when we play 1NT and the strong NTers have an auction like 1m - 1M; 2M - P. There are also effects on the other side of the coin too, with the SNT hands sometimes being a little awkward in competitive auctions. I think this last effect is the reason the SNT has generally won out in natural systems, even when I have personally always played WNT systems (Acol, strong club) and prefer them.

silvr bull, on 2017-February-04, 23:57, said:

I see no more reason to alert responder's pass (after a 12-14 NT open) as showing some values than to alert that I am more or less sane when I sit down to the table. Just as I would not pass with xxxx xxx xxx xxx after a 15-17 NT open (an automatic 2C takeout before LHO can double), I would not pass a 12-14 NT open with xxxx Qxx xxx Jxx. Getting out of 1 NT before the double is an obvious part of the game.

How about x xxxx xxxx xxxx or xxxx x xxxx xxxx though? I think the vast majority of weak NTers (and SNTers for that matter) would pass this and use their runout system after being doubled but it sounds as though ggwhiz was playing (or playing against) systems where this was an automatic response.

[ggwhiz]

Zelandakh, on 2017-February-05, 03:56, said:

it sounds as though ggwhiz was playing (or playing against) systems where this was an automatic response.

Things have changed and maybe I should have made it clear that this was 35 years ago and weak notrumps were very new around here. I don't know anyone above flight c that doesn't have their methods against it worked out today.

Full disclosure was not de rigeur in those days either.