[mike1088]

Hi,

I have a question about a bidding sequence

south opens 2♦ weak, West bids 2 ♠ and north double

what is the meaning of north's double, is it takeout showing ♥ and ♣ or penalty ?

If take out what would be north's hand

THanks

[nige1]

mike1088, on 2017-May-10, 21:16, said:

I have a question about a bidding sequence south opens 2♦ weak, West bids 2 ♠ and north double what is the meaning of north's double, is it takeout showing ♥ and ♣ or penalty ? If take out what would be north's hand

Penalty, IMO

[ahydra]

Generally, a double after partner pre-empts is for penalty. Takeout doesn't make a lot of sense when opener is probably only holding one suit; in particular, he's very unlikely to hold a 4cM. If North had five hearts he can just bid 3H.

ahydra

[proas]

2♦(weak, 6+♦) - 2♥/♠ - X
Dbl is penatly, because the opener defined his hand.

[nekthen]

Another option is a good raise to 3 as opposed to a weak barrage raise

[RedSpawn]

proas, on 2017-May-11, 02:57, said:

2♦(weak, 6+♦) - 2♥/♠ - X
Dbl is penatly, because the opener defined his hand.

Agreed. Double is for penalty. The purpose of the pre-emptive bid is to disrupt the opposition and crisply and quickly define the opener's hand's value (weak) and features (length of ♦).

Under no circumstances should partner be looking for an additional description or alternative fit for a second suit by means of a takeout double (ASSUMING the partner is abiding by the "rigid" parameters by which a weak 2 bid is defined )

[rmnka447]

Penalty. If responder wants to compete further, then he/she must normally either bid a suit, bid NT, or raise partner. The only exception is when responder has a monster hand and cues 3 ♠. Also, the partnership needs to have an understanding whether a new suit by an unpassed hand I forcing or non-forcing in this situation.

[Caitlynne]

The traditional and still mainstream view is that is unequivocally for penalties and that opener MUST pass or else responder would be justified in shooting opener.

The logical reason for the double being penalties is simple and clear. Opener has defined his/her hand very closely in terms of distribution, nature, and defensive values - e.g., six good diamonds in a one-suited hand and about 6 to 10 HCP. Whenever one player descriptively limits his/her hand closely, his/her partner becomes the partnership's Captain In Charge of all decisions.

In this case, the opponent overcalled and Captain made the decision to swing the ax. There is no reason that the Double should ask for another suit either; the 2D opening already said "I have a one suited hand."

If I were playing weak 2 bids and I doubled the opponent and my (non-beginner) partner ever pulled the double, it would be the last time I would ever play with that partner. PERIOD.

[Tramticket]

Caitlynne, on 2017-May-11, 08:56, said:

The traditional and still mainstream view is that is unequivocally for penalties and that opener MUST pass or else responder would be justified in shooting opener.

The logical reason for the double being penalties is simple and clear. Opener has defined his/her hand very closely in terms of distribution, nature, and defensive values - e.g., six good diamonds in a one-suited hand and about 6 to 10 HCP. Whenever one player descriptively limits his/her hand closely, his/her partner becomes the partnership's Captain In Charge of all decisions.

In this case, the opponent overcalled and Captain made the decision to swing the ax. There is no reason that the Double should ask for another suit either; the 2D opening already said "I have a one suited hand."

If I were playing weak 2 bids and I doubled the opponent and my (non-beginner) partner ever pulled the double, it would be the last time I would ever play with that partner. PERIOD.

Wow - the venom in this post!

I agree of course that double is for penalties. But I like my bridge partners to be intelligent players who think. Thinking players do sometimes make "judgements" and will occasionally pass a forcing bid or take out their partner's penalty double. But you need to be in a partnership where both partner's trust the other's judgement and will not "Shoot opener" for exercising judgement.

In the case of a double of a weak two, I would expect it to be unusual if opener takes any action except pass over the double. But there have been several recent threads where good players have advocated a more random style of pre-empting. In this style, opener may not have the single-suited hand that that you are expecting, or may have even more offence vs defence potential and judge that a vulnerable game is possible. Unlikely perhaps - but I don't like dogmatic rules in partnerships.

[aguahombre]

I think I prefer the venom to the tolerance in this case. The venom of Caitlynne's post, not venom at the table, of course.

Removing this Double because he didn't have a weak 2-bid in the first place is pretty much playing with himself...literally and figuratively.

And for the inexperienced readers trying to learn something about partnership bidding, I don't believe encouraging them to "operate" rather than establish a good bidding foundation is helpful.

[rmnka447]

aguahombre, on 2017-May-11, 11:32, said:

I think I prefer the venom to the tolerance in this case. The venom of Caitlynne's post, not venom at the table, of course.

Removing this Double because he didn't have a weak 2-bid in the first place is pretty much playing with himself...literally and figuratively.

And for the inexperienced readers trying to learn something about partnership bidding, I don't believe encouraging them to "operate" rather than establish a good bidding foundation is helpful.

AMEN!!!

If you have the convection to make a bid, then stand by that convection and take the consequences.

[miamijd]

Caitlynne, on 2017-May-11, 08:56, said:

The traditional and still mainstream view is that is unequivocally for penalties and that opener MUST pass or else responder would be justified in shooting opener.

The logical reason for the double being penalties is simple and clear. Opener has defined his/her hand very closely in terms of distribution, nature, and defensive values - e.g., six good diamonds in a one-suited hand and about 6 to 10 HCP. Whenever one player descriptively limits his/her hand closely, his/her partner becomes the partnership's Captain In Charge of all decisions.

In this case, the opponent overcalled and Captain made the decision to swing the ax. There is no reason that the Double should ask for another suit either; the 2D opening already said "I have a one suited hand."

If I were playing weak 2 bids and I doubled the opponent and my (non-beginner) partner ever pulled the double, it would be the last time I would ever play with that partner. PERIOD.

While you generally are right, suppose I made a weak 2H bid on:

void
QJTxxx
x
QTxxxx

You really would expect me to sit for a penalty X of 2s? I hope not.

Cheers,
Mike

[miamijd]

rmnka447, on 2017-May-11, 12:58, said:

AMEN!!!

If you have the convection to make a bid, then stand by that convection and take the consequences.

That's silly. You really want partner to sit with something like:

void
QJTxxx
Qxxxxx
x

Of course you don't. Yes, 99% of the time, partner is going to sit for it. If you preempt, you generally never bid again unless partner forces you to. But there are oddball exceptions to every "rule" in bridge.

Mike

[ggwhiz]

miamijd, on 2017-May-11, 13:32, said:

That's silly. You really want partner to sit with something like:

void
QJTxxx
Qxxxxx
x

But there are oddball exceptions to every "rule" in bridge.

Mike

Partnership wise, only if you are playing solo or going rogue. What on earth makes you think that is 2♥ bid?

[RedSpawn]

miamijd, on 2017-May-11, 13:30, said:

While you generally are right, suppose I made a weak 2H bid on:

void♠
QJTxxx♥
x♦
QTxxxx♣

You really would expect me to sit for a penalty X of 2s? I hope not.

Cheers,
Mike

ggwhiz, on 2017-May-11, 14:19, said:

Partnership wise, only if you are playing solo or going rogue. What on earth makes you think that is 2♥ bid?

Agreed.

Let me introduce you to what we bridge players call a PASS button. You have a very distributional hand that MIGHT pay handsome dividends if you will allow your partner to describe his hand first (if he has a hand that contains opening points and some quick tricks.) Your hand is MUSH until you let him describe what he has 1st. You should refrain from committing the partnership to contracts in 1st or 2nd seat with 0.0 quick tricks, especially when you have recycle bin values.

Let's be clear, your call of PASS does not mean you are done for the auction. It just means you have a hand that doesn't fit any of the agreed-upon opening criteria for a normal or preemptive bid. Give your partner a chance to describe his hand and see if there is some kind of fit that can be made.

Please click link below regarding the general rules for a weak 2 bid. Notice how it says NO VOIDS or side 5 card suits.

Stay Inside the Lines of the Coloring Book

Weak 2 bids are narrowly defined preemptive bids for a reason. It allows your partner to quickly determine what you hold and decide what, if anything, he should do next.

Distribution on the board is already suspect when you have a 6 card or longer suit, but to add a VOID to the mix as the possible shape of your weak 2 hand AND a side 5 card minor suit, just makes bridge life utterly complicated and needlessly miserable for the respondent.

So, now a weak 2 could mean you have a crappy 6 card suit, with a crappy 5 card suit on the side, and a void?

Let me call 1-800-TELE-PATH and see if they can determine if your weak 2 bid is plain vanilla or this hot mess of a hand.

Please color inside the black lines of the weak 2 bid coloring book. It will save you and your partner a lot of headaches and misunderstandings.

Copy & Paste of hyperlink below:

The Weak Two Bid
Edited and updated 6-14-11

WHAT IS A WEAK TWO BID?
An opening bid of 2D, 2H, or 2S (not 2C)
Describing a hand with a strongish 6-card suit
Along with 7-9 HCP (6 or 10 HCP are exceptions, particularly 10).
It can be compared to an opening three bid, the difference is that a three bid normally shows a seven-card suit.

The distribution of the bidder’s Weak Two hand rates to be
6-3-2-2, or
6-3-3-1, or
6-4-2-1.

Notice: no five card side suits, no voids.

[mycroft]

Yeah, if that's a weak 2 for you, then partner is going to get when you pull the penX, and hopefully not put you in slam "to protect our 800".

I bet, however, that were you partnering Caitlynne, that pulling the penalty double would be the *second* partnership limiting move you executed on this auction, *even if the pull was right*.

ISTR on another thread discussing "don't care what your standards are for a weak 2, but define them and stick to them." This discussion is 100% "we have fundamentally different ideas of what is a weak 2". Both think they're right. Both, for their partnerships, are. There are just some partnerships that shouldn't exist :-)

Re: Kantarbridge: Great *introduction* to weak 2s aimed at beginners and low intermediates. I assume everyone realizes that there are also books for advanced players, and they sometimes contradict what we teach new players?

[MrAce]

miamijd, on 2017-May-11, 13:30, said:

While you generally are right, suppose I made a weak 2H bid on:

void
QJTxxx
x
QTxxxx

You really would expect me to sit for a penalty X of 2s? I hope not.

Cheers,
Mike

LOL

[JmBrPotter]

mike1088, on 2017-May-10, 21:16, said:

Hi,

I have a question about a bidding sequence

south opens 2♦ weak, West bids 2 ♠ and north double

what is the meaning of north's double, is it takeout showing ♥ and ♣ or penalty ?

If take out what would be north's hand

THanks

Mike,

Previous replies have certainly explained why this double is a penalty double. All this is quite so if your partnership agreement is that weak-two openings are (1) preemptive and (2) one-suited.

In its original (auction bridge) form, a "weak-two opening" went by a different name. A typical holding might have been ♠AKQxxx ♥Kxx ♦xx ♣xx. We'd call that a full opener, today. The contract bridge scoring table changed things quite a lot. Losing either king or the ♥K and any one of the top three spades leaves a perfectly good weak-two bid as played in the contract bridge world in from about 1950-1969 or so. The bid became weaker and more broadly defined, but still with a six-card suit. It evolved from a strong low-level preemptive bid into a preemptive/constructive (or constructive/preemptive) call.

If you and your partner think of a weak-two opening as a (nearly) pure preempt, stick with this double as penalty. Now a days, many of us will open a weak-two with 5-4-3-1 or 5-4-2-2 shape. The four-card suit might even be spades! Especially, in second seat red against white, our playing strength (if not our HCP) might resemble that of a full opener (maybe, even more than one defensive winner, but maybe a 6-3-3-1 with no outside honor). Third seat at favorable, our weak-two might be a rather shameless handful of (used) tram tickets. So, to my partner and me, this double sounds more like something in the optional double or negative double family. If you have the traditional small one-suiter with no more than one loser in the suit, leave it in for blood. With tram tickets and a four-card major on the side, let's mention that four-bagger. With one-suited tram tickets, pulling the double to the opened suit might make good sense (Think of that as the "no feature" response to a 2NT feature ask.)

This might be a good time for you and your partner to discuss what is (and what is not) a weak-two opener. Pure preempt? Preempt with some constructive flavoring? Mostly constructive with a side of preemptive? How does the bid vary with seat position and vulnerability? Once you've settled those issues, you can talk about responder's actions and bidding over adverse intervention. That would include defining this double in the context of your weak-two opener. The more likely it is that opener might be two-suited or semi-constructive and two-suited, the more likely it becomes that the double should shade towards optional or negative meanings.

[RD350LC]

mike1088, on 2017-May-10, 21:16, said:

Hi,

I have a question about a bidding sequence

south opens 2♦ weak, West bids 2 ♠ and north double

what is the meaning of north's double, is it takeout showing ♥ and ♣ or penalty ?

If take out what would be north's hand

THanks

Good question. It depends on the limit for a negative double, and whether you would use it over a weak 2 bid. Given that you DO use negative doubles in this case, then it would show hearts.
Just my opinion.

[steve2005]

There are sane people who will open a 6-6 as weak 2. Obviously this is pretty rare. A little more likely is 6-5. If this is your partnership style pulling adouble is reasonable with such unexpected distribution.
If you open a off-shape hand outside partnership understanding it isn't so clear.