[Bermy]

Control Precision

I have spent years compiling a complete Precision System based on the original by CC Wei.
The foundation underlying rule is that during the bidding we always have a controlling partner and a blind partner.

“First to bid is always blind, unless opener bids one club and does not return to No Trumps.”

Both Partners now know exactly who the controlling partner is, and who should make the important contractual decisions.

The system summary is a follows, HCP should be counted as exact for first round of bidding.

Opening Bids

1 ♣
All 16+ hands, except 4441, and Balanced 19-21Hcp

1 ♦
Catch all 11-15 singleton diamond possible.

1 Major
11-15 5 card major or more.

2 ♣
11-15 5x♣ and another bid (4 card major, more ♣ or 5x♦

2 ♦

Multi 2♦, includes weak 2 majors, strong 4441 hands and 19-21 NT balanced.

2 Major

Weak 2 suites.

2NT Minor 2 suites (optional)

3 and 4 level Openings are pre-emptive.

3NT Gambling.

Balanced hands open…..
11-12 Open 1♦ rebid NT.
13-15 Open 1NT
16-18 Open 1♣then bid nearest NT
19-21 Open 2♦then bid 2NT(reversible)
22-24 Open 1♣jump NT (reversible)
25+ Open 1♣ rebid 2NT
Open 2NT is available.

The system also includes Alpha, Beta Gamma and Delta bids for 1 club openings, Transfers of majors in 1 club openings, Bergen, Jacoby and Omega bids for super strong hands. Complete matrixes on how to deal with intervention has already been worked out.
Control Precision also works with its own overcalling system, using reverse 1 over 1 overcall, NT take outs for minors and strong jump overcalls. Again with the first bidder being the blind bidder.
Finally, we use Attitude leads and signals, which tie in the bidding with the defence, having a control defender too.
This is just a simple summary, but as you can imagine I have already ironed out 99% of its problems, like methods of dealing with extra distributional values from the blind seat etc.
I have now come to the point where every hand has its place in the bidding with the outcome already set. The multi 2 diamond is like the final piece in the whole jigsaw puzzle and it works. Naturally it’s not perfect, since bridge is not a perfect science and cannot allow for misplays, misleads or bad distribution from opps. No bidding method can bid for the opps hands.
I believe that this system would be a dream for some would be programmer who would like to develop an alternative bidding system to the ones currently available for robots. Should anyone be interested in more information please contact me.

(edited)

[The_Badger]

I have spent years compiling a complete Precision System based on the original by CC Wei.

Hooray +1

As a former Wei Precision player myself I congratulate you, Bermy. I actually believe that Wei Precision is one of the easiest systems for beginners to learn. I used a multi 2♦ with Precision back in the late 1970s and 1980s myself. I like the idea of 1♦ being semi-nebulous, and a possible 11-12 1NT rebid.

The modifications to Precision by Benito Garozzo, Alan Sontag and others proved that Precision is still a potent system, highlighted by Meckwell's past and continuing successes using it.

I wish you all the best using your version of it. Good luck.

[Zelandakh]

Bermy, on 2017-August-31, 05:52, said:

11-12 1Diamond rebid NT.
13-15 Open 1NT
16-18 Open 1Club then bid nearest NT
19-21 Open 2Diamond then bid 2NT

Any particular reason not to use the modern standard of 11-13/14-16/17-19/20-21, which tends to make for a smoother progression overall and has some additional advantages in 1♣ auctions?

[Bermy]

Zelandakh, on 2017-August-31, 07:52, said:

Any particular reason not to use the modern standard of 11-13/14-16/17-19/20-21, which tends to make for a smoother progression overall and has some additional advantages in 1♣ auctions?

The point count has been kept at the original Wei version for convenience. Naturally one can adjust it by a point either way, however this will effect the matrixes of all other opening bids, as I mentioned before.....every hand has its bid, so other bids have to also be adjusted according to fit everything. A robot designed properly may allow one to choose which point range you prefer. Partnerships can adjust accordingly too.

[Zelandakh]

Bermy, on 2017-August-31, 17:33, said:

The point count has been kept at the original Wei version for convenience.

OK, though I fail to see why you would want to keep to the original 1NT range but not to other parts that have a larger bearing on the overall system. Having perfected this system, you might consider looking into symmetric relay and producing a relay version as your next project; or (more complicated) even a system that allows for captaincy to be transferred, so-called reverse relays (or in this case actually reverse asking bids). Alternatively, you might be able to find additional improvements to the basic system if you look hard enough - there is always something to be working on as a system designer!

[Bermy]

Zelandakh, on 2017-August-31, 22:07, said:

OK, though I fail to see why you would want to keep to the original 1NT range but not to other parts that have a larger bearing on the overall system. Having perfected this system, you might consider looking into symmetric relay and producing a relay version as your next project; or (more complicated) even a system that allows for captaincy to be transferred, so-called reverse relays (or in this case actually reverse asking bids). Alternatively, you might be able to find additional improvements to the basic system if you look hard enough - there is always something to be working on as a system designer!

As I said, its all there, I have given you an outlying summary of the overall system, however I have not gone into the methods of relays we use. Control bidder has an armory of relays using weak, intermediate, strong and super strong bids, to guide blind partner and extract more information. We introduce Omega bids that do exactly that, by being able to ask exact information on specific suits outside 1 club openers when the responder is super strong. Also very important we introduce transfers in the majors after 1 club positive major so that the strong hand gets to play more contracts. (Currently used by many Chinese Precision players)

Control Precision Plus deals with the point adjustment. I will post a feed on CP+ later as I do not recommend it until you have a full understanding of the outlining system,

[Zelandakh]

Bermy, on 2017-September-01, 06:00, said:

As I said, its all there, I have given you an outlying summary of the overall system, however I have not gone into the methods of relays we use. Control bidder has an armory of relays using weak, intermediate, strong and super strong bids, to guide blind partner and extract more information.

I think you missed the point here. Reverse relays are about switching the "control" and "blind" positions (to use your nomenclature). Symmetric relay is a method that dispenses with the alpha/beta/etc-style asking bids in favour of an approach maximising the efficiency of shape relays, typically to be followed by control-showing. Some pairs use certain asking bids in their relay breaks but the key feature of these systems is that the majority of hands have the "control" using the cheapest call until they are ready to place the contract.

Bermy, on 2017-September-01, 06:00, said:

Also very important we introduce transfers in the majors after 1 club positive major so that the strong hand gets to play more contracts. (Currently used by many Chinese Precision players)

Not only by the Chinese I assure you. I think the vast majority, perhaps all, of the new strong club methods I have seen in the last years have used transfer responses. My preferred response structures are also transfer-based, not only for the majors but also for the minors and on later rounds. This makes even more sense in a "control"/"blind" bidding system as Declarer on most hands is then not only the strong hand but also much less well defined than in a bilateral system. You could of course just as easily use Meckwell Lite responses here as the 1♣ opening is identical if you adjust the 1NT range to 14-16; it is not necessary to stick with asking bids for anyone that likes your basic structure but wants to use a "proper" relay structure.

[Bermy]

Yes, I get your point, but why is it every time I mention update to Precision somebody comes up with something different to complicate matters even more than necessary.

Many years ago when I was a young aspiring young player I met Mr Gorozzo in a casual tournament. In awe I mentioned how I would love to play his Blue Club system but couldn’t get my head around his complicated relays. He recommended I read CC Wei as he had just simplified the strong club system he called Precision.

CC Wei did exactly that. He gave us a simple system that we all could get our heads around, with simple HCP that one could teach to a novice. Ever since, due to the competitive nature of bridge players, people have been improving on the system, until now we absolutely no standard on what we call Precision.
The original was simple and straight forward, but it had serious flaws in it, namely a poorly thought out 2 ♦ opening, and few solutions to dealing with 4441 hands.

One needs to understand the system or language as I would have it, in its entirety, before one can open one’s mind to improvements, These improvements I call Control Precision Plus, and opens even more expert discussion to experienced players, who really want to explore the language in its entire complexity.

Using my multi 2 ♦ method helps to solves some these problems.

Control Precision is ideal for bringing on new Precision players, because it maintains CC Wei’s simplicity while clearly defining each partner’s role. Keep it that way, I see no reason to change that. New Precision players quickly understand their role as Controlling and Blind Partner and learn the advantages quite quickly. Suddenly they are finding contracts and slams that they were not finding before.

The system does get complicated as there are a lot of sequences to understand and remember, so why is there always out there someone that wants to complicate it even more. I am suggesting a standard system I call Control Precision, a variation of simple CC Wei that uses my version of the 2 ♦ opening in order to complete what Mr. Wei started. Beyond that, players and partnerships can take the bidding to any dimension they like. It’s just that we need a simplified standard, so all can play the same way (Wei)

[Zelandakh]

Bermy, on 2017-September-01, 08:45, said:

Yes, I get your point, but why is it every time I mention update to Precision somebody comes up with something different to complicate matters even more than necessary.

*shrug* Everyone is different. I personally find my relay system much simpler than Precision asking bids and most players find natural bidding simpler than either. To be honest, if you are not looking for suggestions, I am not sure why you posted. Are you wanting to promote your system as Wei did back in the day?

[Zelandakh]

Zelandakh, on 2017-September-01, 09:11, said:

Are you wanting to promote your system as Wei did back in the day?

If you are looking to demonstrate your system, you might consider submitting auctions for this series of hands. The contest is a little old but many of the system designers here at BBF took part. Please do try to be honest (single-dummy) though rather than simply designing an auction to get to the top spot in each case.

[Bermy]

Zelandakh, on 2017-September-01, 09:11, said:

*shrug* Everyone is different. I personally find my relay system much simpler than Precision asking bids and most players find natural bidding simpler than either. To be honest, if you are not looking for suggestions, I am not sure why you posted. Are you wanting to promote your system as Wei did back in the day?

Phew, you are persistent. I wish to promote CC Wei's system with my modification to his 2 diamond opening and a few updates. I'm not reinventing the wheel, using the multi 2D is an old idea to solve those original problems. What I'm really trying to do is introduce the idea of a simple standard so we all can play precision together in a simplified way. No, I'm not open to all the new ideas available as that would be counter productive. If you don't like Wei, I cant help you.

[dparish]

If you've studied systems which have spun off the CC Wei system, you'd see that the biggest problem with the original is the 16 hcp balanced 1C opener. Nearly everyone who plays precision now eliminates that with a min 17 hcp 1C opener with a balanced hand. Either 14-16 NT openings, or my preference 10- 13 NTs with 1D-1?-1NT showing 14-16. If you are going to open 1C with balanced 16 counts, you must upgrade your positives to 9+ hcp.

[Bermy]

dparish, on 2017-September-01, 18:33, said:

If you've studied systems which have spun off the CC Wei system, you'd see that the biggest problem with the original is the 16 hcp balanced 1C opener. Nearly everyone who plays precision now eliminates that with a min 17 hcp 1C opener with a balanced hand. Either 14-16 NT openings, or my preference 10- 13 NTs with 1D-1?-1NT showing 14-16. If you are going to open 1C with balanced 16 counts, you must upgrade your positives to 9+ hcp.

If you are you talking about a 16 to 8 count? Yes if you like, however we have found other ways around the problem. 2 balanced hands will land up at 2NT or 3 major if bid properly with us. Read my previous post on adjusting by a point, and Control Precision Plus deals with this, I have no objection, its a preference, CC Wei remains for convenience.

[Bermy]

Control Precision is a method whereby we use Wei’s bidding as a language for partners to communicate with one another. “First to bid is always blind unless you open 1 club and do not repeat NT”.
Now both partners know their respective roles. We have a blind partner and a control partner. All opening bids are limited. The control partner relays to blind partner how safe it is to bid, while the blind partner gives as much information of its hand as possible. Finally it’s the control partner that places the contract at its best judgment. This is especially important during competitive bidding.
Blind partner is simply guided to the right contract, however sometimes blind partner will know it has extra values, usually an outside void somewhere, so we give one more weapon only used in these cases, a Blind Mad bid.
This has the effect of extremely accurate bidding, even in strong competition.
By understanding the language of Precision partners communicate with one another until the contact is placed. It even gets better. When exploring slams the control partner can ask for details in exactly what suit it is interested in including trumps and learn where the controls are. What a pleasure it is when you can claim, even before dummy is put on the table.

[Nirmalya]

Bermy, on 2017-August-31, 05:52, said:

Control Precision
I have spent years compiling a complete Precision System based on the original by CC Wei.
The foundation underlying rule is that during the bidding we always have a controlling partner and a blind partner.
“First to bid is always blind, unless opener bids one club and does not return to No Trumps.”
Both Partners now know exactly who the controlling partner is, and who should make the important contractual decisions.
The system summary is a follows, HCP should be counted as exact for first round of bidding.
1 Club All 16+
1 Diamond Catch all 11-15 singleton diamond possible.
1 Major 11-15 5 card major or more.
2 Club 11-15 5 clubs and another bid (4 card major, more clubs or 5 diamonds)
2 Diamonds Multi 2 diamonds, includes weak 2 majors, strong 4441 hands and 19-21 NT balanced.
2 Major Weak 2 suites.
2NT Minor 2 suites (optional)
3NT Gambling.
Balanced hands open…..
11-12 1Diamond rebid NT.
13-15 Open 1NT
16-18 Open 1Club then bid nearest NT
19-21 Open 2Diamond then bid 2NT
22-24 Open 1Club jump NT
25+ Open 1Club rebid 2NT
The system also includes Alpha, Beta Gamma and Delta bids for 1 club openings, Transfers of majors in 1 club openings, Bergen, Jacoby and Omega bids for super strong hands. Complete matrixes on how to deal with intervention has already been worked out.
Control Precision also works with its own overcalling system, using reverse 1 over 1 overcall, NT take outs for minors and strong jump overcalls. Again with the first bidder being the blind bidder.
Finally, we use Attitude leads and signals, which tie in the bidding with the defense, having a control defender too.
This is just a simple summary, but as you can imagine I have already ironed out 99% of its problems, like methods of dealing with extra distributional values from the blind seat etc.
I have now come to the point where every hand has its place in the bidding with the outcome already set. The multi 2 diamond is like the final piece in the whole jigsaw puzzle and it works. Naturally it’s not perfect, since bridge is not a perfect science and cannot allow for misplays, misleads or bad distribution from opps. No bidding method can bid for the opps hands.
I believe that this system would be a dream for some would be programmer who would like to develop an alternative bidding system to the ones currently available for robots. Should anyone be interested in more information please contact me.

Interesting
Do you have a complete write up explaining how the control partner and blind partner carry on?
Also, how the asking bids are used?
I would love to play this

[Bermy]

Yes I do and will post it soon.

Control Precision works very well with basic CC Wei version of Precision, however managing 1 diamond openings is slightly different since it may contain a single diamond. It is not a real problem I assure you, make sure both partners know that, and that the opponents are alerted appropriately that your 1 diamond opening bid "may contain a singleton diamond". For starters I recommend using CC Wei Precision or Goren Precision, as their bids especially the asking bids are now universal. It is very important both players are playing the same system the same way (Wei)

[Bermy]

Before I continue, and post notes that you may want or need allow me to explain that I too am guilty of making modifications to Wei’s Precision.
I have modified some sequences and conventions in order to comply with the CP rule that first to bid is always blind, unless opens 1 club and does not return to NT. These have been done to very high standards, and comply with what many Precision writers have suggested in the past.
First to bid is always blind
If first bidder opens 1 club , it announces 16+ and that it controlling the bidding and is not blind. Responder now accepts that it is now the blind partner.
However if the 1 club opener returns to NT it is balanced and limited and cannot take control, as it is really as blind as a bat (or perhaps a flying fox) . Responder must take back control.
Try this, read up CC Wei on how to play Precision and try this, find a partner who can play Wei the Wei way and get on with playing.
See its working already.

[Nirmalya]

Bermy, on 2017-September-07, 04:06, said:

Before I continue, and post notes that you may want or need allow me to explain that I too am guilty of making modifications to Wei’s Precision.
I have modified some sequences and conventions in order to comply with the CP rule that first to bid is always blind, unless opens 1 club and does not return to NT. These have been done to very high standards, and comply with what many Precision writers have suggested in the past.
First to bid is always blind
If first bidder opens 1 club , it announces 16+ and that it controlling the bidding and is not blind. Responder now accepts that it is now the blind partner.
However if the 1 club opener returns to NT it is balanced and limited and cannot take control, as it is really as blind as a bat (or perhaps a flying fox) . Responder must take back control.
Try this, read up CC Wei on how to play Precision and try this, find a partner who can play Wei the Wei way and get on with playing.
See its working already.

I have been playing Wei Precision for more than three decades now. With some partners I am playing those asking bids also, however only Alpha,Beta,Gamma and sometimes epsilon (rarely it is employed).
I am following precision players in BBO and also watching top world class players in Vu Grapgh but seldom I find players using asking bids.
Are asking bids dead?
Have we devised better and more efficient systems around transfer/symmetric/shape relays? I really want to know. As of now I think asking bids are wonderful tools, unless someone proves otherwise.
You are talking about some new approach which I am getting interested in. Presently we play 1C-1M-1NT as Beta asking. In your method 1NT hands over the captaincy, or so it seems. It can be a good idea particularly if you don't have support to your partner's suit. I can give up this low level beta if I see there are better ways to continue after 1c and a positive response

[Bermy]

Nirmalya, on 2017-September-07, 12:34, said:

I have been playing Wei Precision for more than three decades now. With some partners I am playing those asking bids also, however only Alpha,Beta,Gamma and sometimes epsilon (rarely it is employed).
I am following precision players in BBO and also watching top world class players in Vu Grapgh but seldom I find players using asking bids.
Are asking bids dead?
Have we devised better and more efficient systems around transfer/symmetric/shape relays? I really want to know. As of now I think asking bids are wonderful tools, unless someone proves otherwise.
You are talking about some new approach which I am getting interested in. Presently we play 1C-1M-1NT as Beta asking. In your method 1NT hands over the captaincy, or so it seems. It can be a good idea particularly if you don't have support to your partner's suit. I can give up this low level beta if I see there are better ways to continue after 1c and a positive response

Yes I love asking bids too. I do not see any reason to change to anything else, they work, work well and work for me. Established partnerships can deviate, new partnerships cannot. However one has to understand what sequence the asking bid occurs or blind partner will not understand the question. I am saying use them properly, or dont bother. Both partners must play the same way.

Delta bids have been introduced for that sequence that does have an asking bid, 1♣-1♠-2♥ was natural before, now we use the Delta.

Omega bids are for non 1♣ openings and control partner has a huge hand. These help as an aid to finding slam here too.

[Bermy]

Nirmalya, on 2017-September-07, 12:34, said:

I have been playing Wei Precision for more than three decades now. With some partners I am playing those asking bids also, however only Alpha,Beta,Gamma and sometimes epsilon (rarely it is employed).
I am following precision players in BBO and also watching top world class players in Vu Grapgh but seldom I find players using asking bids.
Are asking bids dead?
Have we devised better and more efficient systems around transfer/symmetric/shape relays? I really want to know. As of now I think asking bids are wonderful tools, unless someone proves otherwise.
You are talking about some new approach which I am getting interested in. Presently we play 1C-1M-1NT as Beta asking. In your method 1NT hands over the captaincy, or so it seems. It can be a good idea particularly if you don't have support to your partner's suit. I can give up this low level beta if I see there are better ways to continue after 1c and a positive response

"Presently we play 1♣-1Major-1NT as Beta asking". no, this indicates no major fit and therefore no asking bid, like you say weak hand is in control so if slam is on, the Omega bid (reverse asking bid) is needed. Lots of options are available to control bidder here including Voidwood, Minorwood and RKC 0314

The Gamma is for 1♣-1NT
The Beta is for side suites when a fit is found
The alpha is for all suit fits blind hand long.
so the Delta is for when the control hand has a long suit, but has not found a fit yet.
remember Staymen bidding not asking bids is needed to find 4-4's

Transfers(if you play with them) complicates things, but not if you treat the artificial bid exactly as you did before with a natural bid.

Unfortunately you can't get the sequences wrong, or partnership bidding will go haywire and you will lose your way.