[Vampyr]

weejonnie, on 2019-September-20, 08:44, said:

Of course in EBULand we could have the situation of there being a mismatch in the next round as a result of the fouled board. Great fun, as we may have to amend the VPs in round 5 etc....

Not really. We once had a mismatch in a Swiss Pairs because of a scoring error. We just carried on and it was fine.

We didn’t get our VPs back, though, which annoyed us.

[barmar]

Mismatches can happen for a variety of reasons, often because scores are misreported or the TD misreads the handwriting on the score slip. You just live with it.

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2019-September-20, 08:53, said:

Mismatches can happen for a variety of reasons, often because scores are misreported or the TD misreads the handwriting on the score slip. You just live with it.

What happens if both teams hand in a score slip, and they have reported different results?

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2019-September-20, 09:02, said:

What happens if both teams hand in a score slip, and they have reported different results?

I'd expect them to go find the teams and try to determine the correct result.

This should be rare, as the team reporting the score (conventionally the winning team) is supposed to get confirmation from the other team. The other team captain is supposed to initial the score slip, although in low-level tournaments we frequently don't bother and use the honor system.

Occasionally if you're reporting the score just under the wire, someone will run up to the director's table with the score slip and then confirm with the opponents after the fact. I think it has occasionally happened that the opponents left the room and I couldn't find them to confirm (pretty rare for me because my teams can add up IMPs pretty quickly -- I often arrive at the other table and have to wait for them to finish).

[blackshoe]

The very first time I ever played in a Swiss teams event, at a regional in Syracuse some 20 years ago, I got "elected" captain. Had no idea what I was doing. One match, which we won, the other team's captain came to us, we agreed the score, and she offered to turn in the result. I let her. On the way home, one of my teammates, examining the recap, said "didn't we win this match?" "Yes, we did." "Well, it's scored as we lost it." So when I got home I called the director. He was at another tournament, his wife said. So I called the following week. "He's sick, you can't talk to him", she said. Called the next week: "out of town". I finally got hold of him three months later and of course it was way too late to do anything about it. I don't know how the wrong score got entered. Maybe it was just a simple mistake.

[Vampyr]

blackshoe, on 2019-September-22, 22:40, said:

The very first time I ever played in a Swiss teams event, at a regional in Syracuse some 20 years ago, I got "elected" captain. Had no idea what I was doing. One match, which we won, tvhe other team's captain came to us, we agreed the score, and she offered to turn in the result. I let her. On the way home, one of my teammates, examining the recap, said "didn't we win this match?" "Yes, we did." "Well, it's scored as we lost it." So when I got home I called the director. He was at another tournament, his wife said. So I called the following week. "He's sick, you can't talk to him", she said. Called the next week: "out of town". I finally got hold of him three months later and of course it was way too late to do anything about it. I don't know how the wrong score got entered. Maybe it was just a simple mistake.

Sure it was.

Really rough when you don’t have electronic scoring. When you have that you receive a recap of a match during the next match. Also if you suspect at this point that a board was fouled, the directors have hand records so you can investigate.

Of course there wasn’t electronic scoring 20 years ago.

[pran]

Vampyr, on 2019-September-23, 08:30, said:

Of course there wasn’t electronic scoring 20 years ago.

As a matter of fact: There was! (Well, at least in Europe)

[Vampyr]

pran, on 2019-September-23, 08:58, said:

As a matter of fact: There was! (Well, at least in Europe)

Not in England. The USA apparently still does not have it. Or duplicating machines.

[blackshoe]

Vampyr, on 2019-September-23, 09:18, said:

Not in England. The USA apparently still does not have it. Or duplicating machines.

An overbid. We have both, but they're not used in certain events because our archaic scoring program can't handle electronic scoring in those events.

[pescetom]

blackshoe, on 2019-September-23, 12:14, said:

An overbid. We have both, but they're not used in certain events because our archaic scoring program can't handle electronic scoring in those events.

A slight overbid for Italy. Our scoring programs are far from archaic and we have both, but not all can afford electronic scoring at table and only a few can afford a duplicator.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-September-23, 13:27, said:

A slight overbid for Italy. Our scoring programs are far from archaic and we have both, but not all can afford electronic scoring at table and only a few can afford a duplicator.

I haven't been to a tournament in years that didn't use a duplicator for pair events. We just don't use them for Swiss Teams, because it requires many more sets of boards (this can be mitigated somewhat with movements that share boards between tables, but it still requires more sets than pairs).

And we also use electonic scoring for pair events. There are software compatibility issues for team events.

[Tramticket]

barmar, on 2019-September-23, 18:27, said:

We just don't use them for Swiss Teams, because it requires many more sets of boards (this can be mitigated somewhat with movements that share boards between tables, but it still requires more sets than pairs).

More like one set for every six pairs.

I am amazed that you get any entries for Swiss Teams events. They are not cheap to enter (when you factor in entry fees, travel costs etc.) and the minimum that I expect is a hand record at the end.

[Vampyr]

Tramticket, on 2019-September-24, 01:30, said:

More like one set for every six pairs.

Yes, this sort of proportion is obvious by inspection: for a hand-dealt event, with eg 8-board matches, every table starts with 4 boards. As opposed to 2 when the boards are duplicated.

[barmar]

Tramticket, on 2019-September-24, 01:30, said:

More like one set for every six pairs.

So with 64 tables, that's 128 pairs = 22 sets. And it requires lots of board shuffling between tables, right? As opposed to just swapping boards with your teammates at the half.

Quote

I am amazed that you get any entries for Swiss Teams events. They are not cheap to enter (when you factor in entry fees, travel costs etc.) and the minimum that I expect is a hand record at the end.

We don't seem to have any problem in that regard. People don't miss what they've never had.

At the last regional where I played in Swiss Teams, there were 26 tables in A/X, 25 tables in the Mid-flight, and 13 tables in the Gold Rush.

At the last sectional, there were 22 tables in A/X, 27 in B/C/D, and 9 in the one-session 299er game.

In the national Swiss Team events they use preduplicated boards for the leading teams in the event.

When I played in a regional KO a few months ago, we used preduplicated boards in the semifinals and finals.

[pran]

barmar, on 2019-September-24, 14:08, said:

So with 64 tables, that's 128 pairs = 22 sets. And it requires lots of board shuffling between tables, right? As opposed to just swapping boards with your teammates at the half.

We don't seem to have any problem in that regard. People don't miss what they've never had.

At the last regional where I played in Swiss Teams, there were 26 tables in A/X, 25 tables in the Mid-flight, and 13 tables in the Gold Rush.

At the last sectional, there were 22 tables in A/X, 27 in B/C/D, and 9 in the one-session 299er game.

In the national Swiss Team events they use preduplicated boards for the leading teams in the event.

When I played in a regional KO a few months ago, we used preduplicated boards in the semifinals and finals.

We have long experience in this matter and I have made a little application to calculate the number of duplicates needed depending on the number of tables and number of boards in each round:
With 64 tables 22 sets is ample with 5 boards/round and a bit marginal with 4 boards/round
26 tables will need 9 sets with 4 boards/round or 6 sets with 6 boards/round
and so on.
(The application 'spillbehov' is freely available from my homepage at svenpran.net in Norwegian)

[Vampyr]

barmar, on 2019-September-24, 14:08, said:

So with 64 tables, that's 128 pairs = 22 sets. And it requires lots of board shuffling between tables, right? As opposed to just swapping boards with your teammates at the half.

Board shuffling between tables? You mean passing the boards to the table one below? We even do that in our pairs games, regardless of whether they are Swiss Pairs.

And as you have noticed yourself, you need fewer board sets. Roughly half as many, since you are putting two boards on each table instead of four. You need a few more than half, because at a few tables the boards go out of play, and several sets are kept to the side for tables that get ahead.

[barmar]

pran, on 2019-September-24, 15:04, said:

We have long experience in this matter and I have made a little application to calculate the number of duplicates needed depending on the number of tables and number of boards in each round:
With 64 tables 22 sets is ample with 5 boards/round and a bit marginal with 4 boards/round
26 tables will need 9 sets with 4 boards/round or 6 sets with 6 boards/round
and so on.
(The application 'spillbehov' is freely available from my homepage at svenpran.net in Norwegian)

Our sectional and regional Swiss Teams tournaments are usually 8 rounds of 7 boards (although at the Vegas NABC I think they were doing 7x7 in the two-session events, 4x6 in one-session side Swisses)