[pescetom]

bluenikki, on 2019-October-14, 13:38, said:

I used to put on the card that I pre-empted light but my partner did not.
A sectional acbl tournament director said this was illegal because the partners were required to play the same system.

The law says that "agreed meaning of a call or play shall not alter by reference to the member of the partnership by whom it is made (this requirement does not restrict style and judgement, only method)." A variance from agreed call based upon judgement or style does not imply or constitute a different method, IMO - assuming that by "light" you intend willingness to open hands that are downright ugly but exceed the agreed HCP requirements or to open most hands that reach the lower limit of HCP. If you intend consistently violating the agreed HCP limits then that is another matter of course.

[hrothgar]

bluenikki, on 2019-October-14, 13:38, said:

By the way, I personally believe it is correct to pass as dealer with

QJ2
QJ2
QJ2
KQJ2

As do all followers of Edgar Kaplan's CCCC point count.

Al Roth would have opened that (As would Kaplan)

[aleaxit]

steve2005, on 2019-October-13, 21:26, said:

In ACBL (I dont know about others) it would be illegal to pass a hand that with the same shape but take away some honours would open.
This is to stop people playing forcing pass but i think it applies to this pair if they do it enough times.

I checked with my inexperienced-Director wife, specifically about the practice advocated in many (if perhaps a bit old-fashioned) books and intermediate courses, that there are hands that are too strong to open a pre-empt, but not strong enough to open a 1-bid (not my style, but still quite a popular one).

For example, per http://www.pittsburg...z/JRKLess05.pdf , a weak two guarantees at least 2 of the top 4 honors in the opened suit, and is never opened with two outside Aces or Kings; so, QJTxxx-Kx-Kx-xxx cannot be opened 2♠ because of the two outside Kings... while QJTxxx-Kx-xx-xxx, weaker by 1 King, can be opened 2♠. But that does not mean that in the first hand you have to open 1♠ -- a pass is of course perfectly OK... even though if you "take away some honors" you would open.

She believes this style is perfectly OK in the ACBL; I've asked her to check with more experienced Directors.

So, the statement that in the ACBL "would be illegal to pass a hand that with the same shape but take away some honours would open" is simply false, unless my wife the inexperienced Director is badly mistaken.

[Stephen Tu]

That acbl restriction of not passing with hand of same shape but fewer points only applies to opening one level bids.

[bluenikki]

mikestar13, on 2019-October-13, 19:51, said:

In ACBL it is illegal to agree to pass X HCP if your partnership would agree to open a hand with fewer HCP but the exact same shape.

acbl has always been braindead where pointcount is concerned. So if you open

AQxxx
AJxx
xx
xx

it becomes illegal to pass

Qxxxx
Qxxx
KQ
QJ

Carl

[pescetom]

Stephen Tu, on 2019-October-14, 20:00, said:

That acbl restriction of not passing with hand of same shape but fewer points only applies to opening one level bids.

I imagine you mean in the sense that a one level opening can be weaker than pass.
If so, that is equivalent to a clause of the WBF HUM definition which for many RAs means forbidden in most or all competitions.

[bluenikki]

mikestar13, on 2019-October-13, 19:51, said:

In ACBL it is illegal to agree to pass X HCP if your partnership would agree to open a hand with fewer HCP but the exact same shape.

So if it is ok to open

AQxxx
AJxx
xx
xx

it becomes illegal to pass

Qxxxx
Qxxx
KQ
QJ

ridiculous!

[barmar]

mikestar13, on 2019-October-13, 19:51, said:

In ACBL it is illegal to agree to pass X HCP if your partnership would agree to open a hand with fewer HCP but the exact same shape.

Yet the most recent Bulletin has an article by Larry Cohen on hand evaluation that explains that Work HCP undervalues ace and tens. They've also published articles saying that honors in long suits are more valuable, touching honors and tenaces are better than honors in different suits, etc.

I don't think that rule is intended to be precise to a single point or disallow judgement about suit quality.

[mycroft]

1. Answering the original question, I don't know. It's a style thing that the opponents need to know about, but I'm not sure where you can (except when he game-forces your 3rd seat opener, and you're waiting for the opening lead, this tendency is discloseable and should be disclosed).

2. For those who complain about ACBL regulations, which is a game that has been enjoyed by thousands for over 40 years, it's a lot harder now. Because they've been very careful. But you also have to be very careful, and read the entire section. The Open(+) charts say, as far as disallowed:

Quote

An opening pass in first or second seat that could be a stronger hand than an
opening 1-level bid with the same shape; i.e., if two hands are exactly the same except
that an honour is replaced with a low card in the same suit, you cannot open the hand
with the low card and pass the hand with an honour.

The explanation (i.e., "that is") makes it clear: If you open AQxxx AJxx xx xx you can absolutely pass Qxxxx Qxxx KQ QJ - but you can't pass AQxxx AJxx xx Jx or AQJxx AJxx xx xx. And the examples provided also help:

Quote

• [Restriction 2] An opening pass cannot have a split Range, such as 0-7 or 13-15
  balanced.
  
• [Restriction 2] You can pass hands with certain shapes even if you open other shapes
  with fewer high card points. For example, if you played an opening 2D showing any 4-4-
  4-1 with 15+ HCP, you could agree to pass all weaker 4-4-4-1 hands, even if your other
  1-level openings could be much weaker than 15 HCPs, provided they could not be 4-4-
  4-1.

[661_Pete]

I would always pass a 12-point 4-4-4-1, and possibly even with 13. Playing Acol with 12-14 NT, I cannot rebid my suit if partner responds in my singleton. With 14, I might risk NT. I'd welcome suggestions - this is my least-favourite hand shape.

[johnu]

bluenikki, on 2019-October-15, 07:32, said:

So if it is ok to open

AQxxx
AJxx
xx
xx

it becomes illegal to pass

Qxxxx
Qxxx
KQ
QJ

ridiculous!

Repeating something doesn't make it true.

IIRC, the bidding charts were written that way to outlaw forcing pass systems where an opening pass is equivalent to a standard opening bid. You are welcome to use your judgement and pass a 12 HCP with the caveat that partner should not play you for a better hand if you pass than if you bid.

[johnu]

661_Pete, on 2019-October-15, 13:28, said:

I would always pass a 12-point 4-4-4-1, and possibly even with 13. Playing Acol with 12-14 NT, I cannot rebid my suit if partner responds in my singleton. With 14, I might risk NT. I'd welcome suggestions - this is my least-favourite hand shape.

Always pass 4-4-4-1 hands no matter how many points you have. The directors will thank you for keeping the game moving quickly.

[bluenikki]

hrothgar, on 2019-October-14, 14:44, said:

Al Roth would have opened that (As would Kaplan)

From first K-S book: no 1.5 quick tricks,no opening. 11.10 CCCC points. Kaplan would NOT open it as dealer.

For that matter, in early Roth-Stone, an opening required 2 defensive tricks, separately from the point count requirement.

[hrothgar]

bluenikki, on 2019-October-15, 16:09, said:

From first K-S book: no 1.5 quick tricks,no opening. 11.10 CCCC points. Kaplan would NOT open it as dealer.

For that matter, in early Roth-Stone, an opening required 2 defensive tricks, separately from the point count requirement.

CCCC does not apply to balanced hands

[Zelandakh]

661_Pete, on 2019-October-15, 13:28, said:

I would always pass a 12-point 4-4-4-1, and possibly even with 13. Playing Acol with 12-14 NT, I cannot rebid my suit if partner responds in my singleton. With 14, I might risk NT. I'd welcome suggestions - this is my least-favourite hand shape.

In my regular partnerships I have always played that 1♦ - 2♣; 2♦ is forcing for one round and may explicitly be only a 4 card suit. This obviously requires an alert. The more mainstream solution to this shape is to open 1♥ and rebid 2♦ over 2♣, meaning that this sequence does not promise 5 hearts.

Other 4441 shapes provide no difficulty in Acol - open 1=4=4=4 1♦, 4=4=1=4 1♣ and 4=1=4=4 with whichever minor suit you prefer. My preference with the 4=1=4=4 is the traditional suit-under-the-singleton 1♦, which makes life a little easier on the auction 1X - (1♠) - X - (P) but enough play up-the-line for the 1♣ opening to be a perfectly acceptable approach.

[ahydra]

You'd look a bit silly when partner passes with a flat KKK or AKK and you miss a cold game.

Edit: this was in response to the 15-count hand Carl suggested should be passed. Somehow about 10 posts appeared in between.

ahydra