[jillybean]

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IMP pairs etc
2♠ is constructive, 3 cards (7)8-10

Your bid?
2N asks partner where their other values are
3♦ is a short suit game try, 3♣, 3♥ would also be.
3♠ asks for help in spades, honours.

[TMorris]

I would bid 4S. Heart shortage gives me enough to have play for game opposite any raise so why tell the opponents mroe about my hand than I need to.

[Cyberyeti]

Yes there is room for partner to hold AQx, xx, xxxx, KJxx or AQx, QJxxx and 5 other cards and a slam to be cold but you're trying to hit a pretty narrow target.

Partner can also hold hands with 3 small spades and wasted diamond honours where 4♠ might not make.

I think just bidding 4♠ is not unreasonable, if I didn't do that, I can live with 2N or 3♦ in the hope of inducing a club lead.

[paulg]

My thoughts on this hand turn to slam and whether it is likely to be a good proposition opposite a constructive raise. The only hands that get close are those where we can play six hearts in a 4-4 heart fit where partner has good spades and the queen of hearts, such as

♠AQx
♥Qxxx
♦xxx
♣xxx

but your methods will not allow me to find such a fit so I'll just sign off in game. It also needs partner to hold precisely the right cards and I will never know that partner holds the right pointed ace for the contract to be worthwhile.

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2021-April-05, 03:03, said:

My thoughts on this hand turn to slam and whether it is likely to be a good proposition opposite a constructive raise. The only hands that get close are those where we can play six hearts in a 4-4 heart fit where partner has good spades and the queen of hearts, such as

♠AQx
♥Qxxx
♦xxx
♣xxx

but your methods will not allow me to find such a fit so I'll just sign off in game. It also needs partner to hold precisely the right cards and I will never know that partner holds the right pointed ace for the contract to be worthwhile.

It actually doesn't need to be the right pointed ace, QJx, xx, Axxxx, Kxx will also do, but yes it's a pretty small chance

Your construction (plus ♥J) is why I like to play long suit tries, 1♠-2♠-3♥-4♥ and you can get to the right spot.

[sfi]

I would very much like to be playing natural slam tries here, so I could bid 3H. They are rare, but when they come up it's nice to be able to set expectations early.

This means all game tries go through 2NT. When well structured, the 2NT continuations wind up with responder describing their hand and opener asking questions, so the hidden hand reveals less during the auction.

Given the described agreements, it's a choice between a 4D splinter (I can do that, can't I?) and simply bidding 4S.

[Cyberyeti]

sfi, on 2021-April-05, 03:53, said:

Given the described agreements, it's a choice between a 4D splinter (I can do that, can't I?) and simply bidding 4S.

Well you can just bid 3♦, and partner if suitable can presumably cue something on the way back

[apollo1201]

I just saw IMPs, constructive raise, 64 hand.

Good partners don’t have the required cards when we want to bid lazily.

So a direct 4S, your lead my dear East, please.

[sfi]

Cyberyeti, on 2021-April-05, 04:09, said:

Well you can just bid 3♦, and partner if suitable can presumably cue something on the way back

That's a possibility, but I would prefer partner thinking slam immediately. Otherwise partner may be tempted to simply jump to 4S with a suitable max.

[Cyberyeti]

sfi, on 2021-April-05, 06:06, said:

That's a possibility, but I would prefer partner thinking slam immediately. Otherwise partner may be tempted to simply jump to 4S with a suitable max.

It depends on your style here, if when very max it's routine to cue it will pick up some of the relevant hands, but leak a bit of info if partner wasn't interested, also how you play 3♥ over 3♦

[paulg]

paulg, on 2021-April-05, 03:03, said:

My thoughts on this hand turn to slam and whether it is likely to be a good proposition opposite a constructive raise. The only hands that get close are those where we can play six hearts in a 4-4 heart fit where partner has good spades and the queen of hearts, such as

♠AQx
♥Qxxx
♦xxx
♣xxx

but your methods will not allow me to find such a fit so I'll just sign off in game. It also needs partner to hold precisely the right cards and I will never know that partner holds the right pointed ace for the contract to be worthwhile.

Cyberyeti, on 2021-April-05, 03:28, said:

It actually doesn't need to be the right pointed ace, QJx, xx, Axxxx, Kxx will also do, but yes it's a pretty small chance

Your construction (plus ♥J) is why I like to play long suit tries, 1♠-2♠-3♥-4♥ and you can get to the right spot.

I think your construction is a limit raise, not a constructive raise to the two level.

[DavidKok]

Both 4♠ and 3♦ (trying for slam, although partner doesn't know it yet) are reasonable. I'm having a hard time estimating the chance of slam on this auction, as the 2♠ constructive raise overlaps with my notion of a limit raise. It is also slightly relevant whether partner is supposed to superaccept by making a control bid over your 3♦, or if they are expected to consume the rest of the bidding space by jumping to 4♠ on a positive hand.

[Cyberyeti]

paulg, on 2021-April-05, 06:45, said:

I think your construction is a limit raise, not a constructive raise to the two level.

I was taking the definition as 8-10 with 3 card support as defined in the OP, I don't play this sort of thing playing 4M so a raise to 2 is 3 or 4.

[mikeh]

Just bid 4S

There is virtually no way to bid a slam without it being an almost complete guess as to whether it has play.

3D, as a short suit game try, gets you nowhere.

Say partner makes the strongest possible move over that: by bidding 4D, showing the Ace and no other wasted values in the suit.

What now?

How do you find out his heart holding, which will likely be key? How do you know you have no spade loser?

Plus after 3D, short suit, if you bid slam you’re pretty much guaranteeing a diamond or trump lead, neither of which are going to help you (if you need help in trump, they won’t lead trump).

Btw, it’s probably worth looking into playing two way game tries. Use an immediate bid of a new suit as a short suit try and 2N as asking responder to bid the cheapest suit in which he would reject a help suit try.

Say you bid 2N and partner bids 3D.....you can place him with little in diamonds and with the club King. You now bid 3H, as a help suit try, and if he bids anything other than 3S, he has help for you in hearts. Maybe Axx Qx xxxx Kxxx

Note that even here slam is borderline after a diamond lead, but very good on any other lead.

Going back to your actual methods....say you bid 3D and partner jumps to 4S....he has no other acceptance available since he has no aces to cue....how do you know that you have no heart loser...or that spades come home for no losers?

Meanwhile, even at imps overtricks count...not much but they do. So when trying for slam cannot lead to knowing that slam is solid, don’t tell the opponents how to defend a game.

[LBengtsson]

4♠ 4♠ 4♠ 4♠

slam is greedy. need extra special fit. keep simples. there is losing ♠s, losing ♥s, losing ♦ and a possible finesse. if I need a top score at mps or swing board at imps then only I would think 'slam'

[jillybean]

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Making 5, I'm too embarrassed to post the entire auction but I will say I didn't push to slam.