[helene_t]

Foobar said during a conversation we had that you can use SR in any system. I wonder - how would Polish Club work as a relay system? Traditional Polish club uses a 2♦ rebid as a GF relay (both after a 1♦ and a 1M response) but that takes away too much bidding space to resolve responder's shape completely.

One option I could think of was to let responder be captain. It would work a bit like Dutch Doubleton:

1♣-1♦(R, including the traditional Polish 1♦ responses)
1♥*-1♠®
2♣**-2♦(GF R)
* Includes any 12-14 bal
**15+ with rounded suits, F1

This obviously limits our possibilities for scrambling to a major suit contract when opener s 12-14 bal and responder is 0-6.

We could also let opener be captain, for example:

1♣-1♥(4+ spades)
1♠(R*)

and

1♣-1♠(3- spades,4+hearts)
2♣(R, 15+)

* maybe we could include 12-14 bal w/o a 4-card in 1♠ and then let 1NT be 12-14 bal with 4 hearts.

Letting opener be captain after a traditional Polish 1♦ response seems more awkward. We could maybe play
1♣-1♦
1♥(R*)-(1♠ through 2♥ are traditional weak natural)
* includes 12-14 bal, at least without four spades, as well as GF hands

Any thoughts?

[Gilithin]

Zelandahk's system is basically just Polish Club with a weak NT and relay continuations for the 18+ hand. That seems like the easiest way of doing it.

[foobar]

Gilithin, on 2021-December-28, 18:07, said:

Zelandahk's system is basically just Polish Club with a weak NT and relay continuations for the 18+ hand. That seems like the easiest way of doing it.

Is the system documented somewhere?

[sieong]

You may want to take a look at the Swedish club system as played by Fredin and Lindkvist between 2000 and 2004, which combines relay with a two-way club. Most of the relay sequences are explained in the notes. I believe it should be possible to adapt this to a Polish club base.

[1] Front of card: http://info.ecatsbri...ndkvist%201.pdf
[2] Back of card: http://info.ecatsbri...ndkvist%202.pdf
[3] Notes: http://info.ecatsbri...ist%20notes.pdf

[Gilithin]

foobar, on 2021-December-29, 00:56, said:

Is the system documented somewhere?

Well he posted it on these forums often enough. I'm fairly sure that if Helene has any interest in the system, she'll already know where to look to get the details.

[ulven]

sieong, on 2021-December-30, 14:06, said:

You may want to take a look at the Swedish club system as played by Fredin and Lindkvist between 2000 and 2004, which combines relay with a two-way club. Most of the relay sequences are explained in the notes. I believe it should be possible to adapt this to a Polish club base.

[1] Front of card: http://info.ecatsbri...ndkvist%201.pdf
[2] Back of card: http://info.ecatsbri...ndkvist%202.pdf
[3] Notes: http://info.ecatsbri...ist%20notes.pdf

That 1C structure was put together in 1990 when I played with Magnus. I'm not sure if I can dig up the notes any longer.

[nullve]

Gilithin, on 2021-December-30, 21:44, said:

Well he posted it on these forums often enough.

You know him, don't you?

[Gilithin]

nullve, on 2022-January-01, 07:49, said:

You know him, don't you?

If I did I would ask him to start posting again. These forums have lost way too many good contributors. If you know any of them personally, perhaps you might ask them to return.

[Kungsgeten]

I echo what has been said about the Fredin-Lindqvist notes. It seems relays becomes easier if the positive responses are GF vs the strong variants, which is the case for Swedish Club but not Polish. So I think 2♣ would need to be 11-15 and 1♣ at least 16 when strong, and positives show 8+.

I'd probably go for something like this (a few changes compared to F-L):

1C--
1D = 0-7 any or 8-10 NT (not 4H unless 4-4 majors).
1H = Natural with 4+H. 1♠ is GF relay.
1S = Unbalanced with 4+S. 1NT is GF relay, others 12-14 (similar to F-L).
1NT = GF, balanced or 4441 or unbalanced without major. 2C relays, 2D is 12-14 NT.
2C = Non-forcing, 5+C no major. Includes 5-5 minors.
2D = Non-forcing, 5+D no major.
2H = INV balanced.
Others = To taste.

You could use 1NT and 2C as transfers instead (accepting is 12-14, step above relays), freeing up 2D (some kind of reverse flannery could be nice).

The reason for not playing "switched majors" is primarily when opener is weak: we want fourth-suit overcaller to be on lead and the weak continuations leaves some more room after 1C-1S (compared to if 1S shows hearts):

1C-1S;
1NT = Relay.
2C = 12-14 NT, not spade support.
...2D = To play.
...2H = Puppet to 2S, to play 2S or various GF. Downside though not being able to show 5S and 4H. Could probably be included in the 1H response, but not sure that it is worth it in competition...
...2S = INV with 5S.
2D = 12-14 NT, good three-card support. Could use the puppet here too.
2H = Strong, doesn't want to relay? Or perhaps a good 12-14 four card raise?
2S = 12-14 NT with support.

[olien]

Kungsgeten, on 2022-January-01, 16:52, said:

1C--
1D = 0-7 any or 8-10 NT (not 4H unless 4-4 majors).
1H = Natural with 4+H. 1♠ is GF relay.
1S = Unbalanced with 4+S. 1NT is GF relay, others 12-14 (similar to F-L).
1NT = GF, balanced or 4441 or unbalanced without major. 2C relays, 2D is 12-14 NT.
2C = Non-forcing, 5+C no major. Includes 5-5 minors.
2D = Non-forcing, 5+D no major.
2H = INV balanced.
Others = To taste.

Does the structure require a 1NT or 2♥ response when responder has a balanced hand with 11+ HCP and 4+♠ (and not 4♥)?

[Kungsgeten]

olien, on 2022-January-06, 02:47, said:

Does the structure require a 1NT or 2♥ response when responder has a balanced hand with 11+ HCP and 4+♠ (and not 4♥)?

Good question! I haven't played it myself, but it is based on the structure I actually do play. We don't use relays over 1C though, so our 1♠ response can be balanced. Here's what we currently do:

1D = May be 8-10 NT, no major.
1M = 4+M. Can be balanced w/ 4M if less than GF.
1NT = GF as previous post. Can have 4M.
2H = Balanced INV, usually not 4M (have no way to show it).

I hadn't thought about the invites with 4♠ in this version where 1♠ is unbalanced. It could be possible to use the 2♠ or 2NT response to show that hand. It could also be the case that INV balanced hands with 4♠ is biddable with a simple 1♠ response. Example:

1C-1S; 1NT (relay)--
2C = 4S.
...2H = 5+C or a subset of 4441.
...2S = Balanced, INV+.
...2NT+ = 5+D or a subset of 4441.
2D+ = 5+S.

1C-1S; 2C (pass correct)--
2D = To play.
2H = Puppet to 2S. Weak or GF.
2S = INV with 5S.
2NT = INV with 4S.
3m = Canapé INV.
3H = INV 5S and 4H (seems high though...)
3S = 5332 GF?

[nullve]

helene_t, on 2021-December-28, 16:07, said:

Traditional Polish club uses a 2♦ rebid as a GF relay (both after a 1♦ and a 1M response) but that takes away too much bidding space to resolve responder's shape completely.

In an otherwise standard Polish Club system with Multi 2♦ and Muiderberg 2♥/♠ it should be possible to play something like

P-1♣; 1♥("7-11, 4+ H")-2♦; ?:

2♥ = 4+ S
...2♠
......2N = 3-suited
.........3♣
............3♦ = 4-5 D
...............3♥
..................3♠ = 4441
..................3N = 4450
..................4♣ = 4540
............3♥ = 4414
............3♠ = 4405
............3N = 4504
......3♣ = BAL or 6+H5S
.........3♦
............3♥ = high shortage
............3♠ = 5611
............3N = 4432
............4♣ = 5620
......3♦+ = H+S reverser
2♠ = BAL, not 4 S
...2N
......3♣ = 5 H
.........3♦
............3♥ = 2533
............3♠ = 3523
............3N = 3532
......3♦ = 4 C
.........3♥
............3♠ = 2434
............3N = 3424
......3♥ = 3433
......3♠ = 2443
......3N = 3442
2N = H+D reverser
3♣ = 3-suited with 4H1-S
...3♦
......3♥ = 1444
......3♠ = 0445
......3N = 0454
3♦ = H+C reverser, high shortage
3♥ = H+C reverser, even shortage
...3♠
......3N = 2425
......4♣ = 1417
3♠ = 3415
3N = 2416
4♣ = 3406
4♦ = 2407


P-1♣; 1♠("7-11, 4+ S")-2♦; ?:

2♥ = 4+ H
...2♠
......2N = 5S5H or 6+S5+H
.........3♣
............3♦ = high shortage
............3♥ = 6511
............3♠ = 5521
............3N = 5530
............4♣ = 6520
......3♣ = 3-suited
.........3♦
............3♥ = 5404
............3♠ = 5440
......3♦+ = H+S anti-reverser
2♠ = BAL, not 4 H
...2N
......3♣ = 5 S
.........3♦
............3♥ = 3233
............3♠ = 5323
............3N = 5332
......3♦ = 4 C
.........3♥
............3♠ = 4234
............3N = 4324
......3♥ = 4333
......3♠ = 4243
......3N = 4342
2N = S+D reverser
3♣ = 3-suited with 4S1-H
...3♦
......3♥ = 4244
......3♠ = 4045
......3N = 4054
3♦ = S+C reverser, high shortage
3♥ = S+C reverser, even shortage
...3♠
......3N = 4225
......4♣ = 4117
3♠ = 4315
3N = 4216
4♣ = 4306
4♦ = 4207

The structure is maybe +2 or so on average, but Responder's range is never wider, and often narrower, than 7-11.