[jillybean]

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After defending for most of the session, you're happy to pick up this nice hand.
Partner however, is not cooperating, have you had your bid?

[Cyberyeti]

What has partner shown ? and what would 1♣-2♥ have been ?

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-24, 09:31, said:

What has partner shown ? and what would 1♣-2♥ have been ?

Partner has shown a minimum hand with 5♥
1♣ 2♥ would be weak

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2022-March-24, 09:37, said:

Partner has shown a minimum hand with 5♥
1♣ 2♥ would be weak

What shape and point count can he be that bids 2♥ with 5 ? Do you ever pass 1♠ ?

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-24, 10:05, said:

What shape and point count can he be that bids 2♥ with 5 ? Do you ever pass 1♠ ?

2542 type distribution, 6-9 points. Could hold 1642, but it's a weak hand.
Yes, partner can pass 1♠ , unlikely but certainly possible.

[helene_t]

I don't understand how partner can bid this way with only 5 hearts unless they are kqjtx or so. Would 1nt be artificial?
Anyway if 2h can be 5, 3h is enough now. Otherwise 4h is tempting but maybe a bit much.

[LBengtsson]

I will ignore partner and bid 3♣. This surely must show this 6421 hand with extra values that cannot reverse. Partner has chosen to show weak values and tried to sign off. I am worth one more bid. If partner now bids 3♦ I will bid 3♥. I do not like raising ♥ immediately with doubleton honour even though I should show support. But I can not make out this bidding by partner. What has he got? I can only guess that the opening bid of 1♣ could be short and partner cannot give preference. So I will let him know what I have: 3♣ I would think is NF here imo if partner is very weak.

[pescetom]

I wouldn't agree to play without some convention (preferably XYZ) after the first three bids: if partner still repeats her hearts then I have had my bid.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2022-March-24, 12:22, said:

I don't understand how partner can bid this way with only 5 hearts unless they are kqjtx or so. Would 1nt be artificial?
Anyway if 2h can be 5, 3h is enough now. Otherwise 4h is tempting but maybe a bit much.

This was my thought, it unequivocally shows 6 in any partnership I've ever played in, 2542 bids 1N unless the reds are KQJ109/5432 or similar

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2022-March-24, 09:37, said:

Partner has shown a minimum hand with 5♥
1♣ 2♥ would be weak

Are you sure? I can’t imagine bidding 2H with only 5.

System matters to a degree…thus in my partnerships 1S promised at least 9 black cards….we rebid 1N with hands such as 4234 and open 1D with 4144…but, even so, 2H to show a ‘weak hand with 5H’ is a very bad style, imo. Wtf is opener to do with a minimum and 4=1=3=5? Pass and play in the opponents’s best trump fit (some of the time)? Bid 2N with no fit and less than half the hcp? Bid 3C and find partner with a weak 3=5=3=2?

With only 5 hearts, he can and should bid 1N with say 3532 or 2C with 3 card support and say 2533, no diamond card or even raise 1S to 2S with a suitable hand…say KJx Axxxx xxx xx

Obviously having to bid 1N with 2533 and no diamond card is less than ideal, but that’s why many good players play that 1S shows 4=5 blacks or better, so that responder doesn’t bid 1N and see the opps run five or six diamonds at him.

On this hand, for sure I bid. I raise hearts. The real question is 3 or 4. At imps, I’d bid 4 without hesitation. At mps, especially with a non-expert partner, I’d content myself with 3H.

Btw, the fact that you play weak jumpshifts should not mean that 2H shows 5. What it should, imo, mean is that it shows six (or more) and a hand too strong for a weak jumpshift. Back when I played wjs we capped the bid at a 6 count. There are many hands too strong for that but too weak for an invitational rebid. Your range may differ but if it includes, say, a 9 count, I don’t think you are playing weak jumpshifts!

[jillybean]

Yes, this is how we would treat a 2542 type hand when partner does not want to bid NT (this may be the problem).

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2♦. xyz/4th suit, game forcing
2♣ xyz. If 2♣ was available, natural, we wouldn't chose it.
Pass ?
1nt - convince me why this is a good bid, I have few entries to partners hand, and have sympathy for the 2♥ bid.

[smerriman]

With diamonds so much better than hearts I think I'd go with the XYZ 2♣ - we can still find our heart fit if partner can break the transfer with 2♥. But weak 5-5 reds is always awkward; 1NT / 2♣ / 2♥ can all be right at times.

[TylerE]

jillybean, on 2022-March-24, 17:57, said:

1nt - convince me why this is a good bid, I have few entries to partners hand, and have sympathy for the 2♥ bid.

It's a good bid because then you don't have this horrible 2♥ rebid. Sometimes you give up on some auctions to gain on others.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2022-March-24, 17:57, said:

Yes, this is how we would treat a 2542 type hand when partner does not want to bid NT (this may be the problem).

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2♦. xyz/4th suit, game forcing
2♣ xyz. If 2♣ was available, natural, we wouldn't chose it.
Pass ?
1nt - convince me why this is a good bid, I have few entries to partners hand, and have sympathy for the 2♥ bid.

How many hearts is partner likely to have when he bids 1S, having opened 1C?

Even if your style is to never bypass 1S with 4 spades, which is definitely the dominant style for most, and still has some following even in the expert world, he will rarely have 3 and never 4.

He’ll rarely have three partly because he’ll often have 8 or more black cards…he has to be specifically 4333 to hold only 7 blacks and have 3 hearts. I can’t give you a probability of his shape but I am confident that he is more likely to have two than three….bearing in mind that some 3 card holdings raise 1H to 2H….for example, with say Qxxx Kxx x AJxxx the vast majority of reasonably good players bid 2H rather than 1S.

Give him a better hand: say AJxx Kxx x AQxxx he rebids 1S and over 1N by you he bids 2H!

This latter point is, of course, an argument in favour of rebidding 1N: most times when you belong in 2H you will get there after bidding 1N.

Note that if he does have the decent to good 4315 hand, intending to bid 2H over 1N, he should raise your 2H rebid to 3H! And sometimes 4! AKxx Kxx x AQxxx should definitely bid 4H over 2H.

Meanwhile bear in mind that even die-hard up the line bidders sometimes hold distributional hands….where it’s not that they don’t have three hearts…or two…they may hold one or even none!

Also, and a minor factor since not everyone would bid it this way and it’s a rare holding, how would you bid, as opener, with say KQxx void AQxx AJxxx?

I’d seriously consider 1C 1H 1S 1N 2D!

At the risk of repeating myself, another strong argument against 2H is that 2H should be a constructive bid. There is or should be in any coherent method a hand type that is wrong for a WJS, because it’s too strong, but also wrong for either 2C (starting an invitational sequence) or 2D (starting a forcing sequence)

Give me xx AQJxxx Qxx xx.

It’s absurd to treat this as one would xx KQ109xx xxx xx, which looks like a wjs to me. If you jump to 2H on both, opener will either get too high on the latter or go too low on the former far, far too often.

It’s also silly to treat the first hand as invitational after opener rebids 1S….I might invite if feeling aggressive and having seen a 1N rebid (although I think it losing bridge at mps because not only is 4H often failing, but also 3H might fail when he rejects….Kxx xx Kxx AQxxx can easily lose 5 or even 6 tricks even with 3-2 trump)

So if using weak jumpshifts and xyz you need a way to show the first hand type and thus is done by bidding 1H then, over 1S or 2C, bidding 2H.

Btw, if you decide to use 1C 1R 1S as promising 9+ black cards, don’t use xyz….responder needs to be able to get out in 2C with, say, xxx KQxx xxx Qxx.

All of this are reasons why 2H ought not to be ‘weak with 5H’

Of course, you have two arguments for your preference for 2H on that hand, and perhaps your main argument is not that you like 2H but that you hate 1N more!

1N is an ugly bid. It’s not, imo, nearly as ugly as 2H, but it’s definitely not a thing if beauty.

Let me begin by stating what every bridge player knows or should know: there is NO bidding system or style that NEVER requires one to make an ugly call. Some hands are like that. We suck it up and make the systemic bid not because we like it but because the system dictates it.


If, and I suggest it really should, 2H is defined as ‘constructive with 6+ hearts’ (bear in mind that such hands exist and need to be described) and we lack the shape needed to pass 1S or take a club preference then system dictates 1N.

Consider this: you hold x xx Qxxxx AJxxx. Partner opens 1S.

Now assume you’re playing 2/1. You bid 1N and partner rebids 2H.

This is a truly ugly hand. You have no good choices…none. Pass and he might be 6=4 in the majors. Bid 2S and he might be 5=5.

Bid 2N, showing at least a king more than you have, and he may raise with 14.

And so on.

So you have to accept that sometimes you’re likely heading for a minus. You make your call not because it’s good but because it’s (you hope) the least bad. On the 1255 nightmare I bid 2S. I hate it but maybe he has 6 spades or maybe he has 5404/5440 shape or a near jumpshift with 5431/5413 and can bid 3m next time. Passing is too committal, 2N a huge overbid/misdescription and 3C/d silly.

Here 1N isn’t good but it preserves chances. He may bid 2C with 6 clubs. He may bid 2H with a good 4315. He may well have 4135 and now not only may we get some diamond winners but we avoid a truly appalling heart contract.

If he passes 1N…I don’t like our chances but I have a very difficult time imagining that 2H will play two tricks better than 1N.

I hope this helps.

[LBengtsson]

2♥ imo is a crazy bid. Partner has not reversed, you are weak. The suit is poor. Your hand is poor. It takes the bidding a level higher. Partner will not know what sort of hand you have. Yes, you have misfit, and 1NT is not a good contract (and I agree entries are poor) but tell partner what you have got, not what you have not got.

I try to think 'outside the box' on most hands. If this were a 2♠5♥5♦1♣ hand as an opening bid and the bidding went 1♥ - 1♠ - would you never bid the ♦ suit? As it is on your hand, you cannot bid 2♦ as it is artificial xyz and GF, but you must show partner that you have ♦ cover in a NT contract by bidding 1NT. Would you rebid the ♥ suit (in preference to the better ♦ suit) if the hand was a opening bid level and playing a system like 4M. I think 'no' would be the answer.

[Douglas43]

It's harder to evaluate opposite 2♥ that might be a five card suit. Even if partner has five they can normally find another bid. I'm going to assume partner has 6 or 7 anyway and evaluate my hand opposite a weak two. KQxxxx and out gives us 9 tricks on top. 3♥ at pairs, 4♥ at teams.

As this is the novice and beginner forum I'll add: bidding 2H with only a five card suit is definitely not standard, I would recommend a six card suit.

[AL78]

jillybean, on 2022-March-24, 17:57, said:

Yes, this is how we would treat a 2542 type hand when partner does not want to bid NT (this may be the problem).

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2♦. xyz/4th suit, game forcing
2♣ xyz. If 2♣ was available, natural, we wouldn't chose it.
Pass ?
1nt - convince me why this is a good bid, I have few entries to partners hand, and have sympathy for the 2♥ bid.

1NT is the lesser of evils. I am not familiar with xyz but rebidding a poor 5 card suit just looks far worse than telling partner you have diamonds covered, you can't stand his suits. and your heart suit is not rebiddable. MikeH has covered the full reasoning in an excellent post (as always). 1NT might be problematic to play with the misfit and poor communication, but how would you like to play in 2♥ with five to the ten opposite Hx, or a singleton if you're unlucky?

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2022-March-25, 03:33, said:

1NT is the lesser of evils. I am not familiar with xyz but rebidding a poor 5 card suit just looks far worse than telling partner you have diamonds covered, you can't stand his suits. and your heart suit is not rebiddable. MikeH has covered the full reasoning in an excellent post (as always). 1NT might be problematic to play with the misfit and poor communication, but how would you like to play in 2♥ with five to the ten opposite Hx, or a singleton if you're unlucky?

I would take 1N out into 2♣ with the W hand which is not fun but may make (there's no law against partner being 2542 where it's lots better)

[helene_t]

1NT is not only likely to be better than 2♥, it is also more flexible. If partner bids 2♣ (or if opps double 1NT), we can bid 2♦ to offer partner a choice between the red suits. Or partner may bid 2♥ on their own initiative if they have three hearts and a bit more than a minimum. Or partner may bid 2♦ with a 4045, 4036 or 4135 and extras, we would welcome that also.

Bidding 2♥ means that we will always play 2♥ unless partner has a maximum.

[AL78]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-March-25, 06:28, said:

I would take 1N out into 2♣ with the W hand which is not fun but may make (there's no law against partner being 2542 where it's lots better)

So would I, but the decision on whether to bid 1NT or 2♥ is made with the likelihood you will be left in either, and my point was if we are left in it, I think we'd have a better chance making 1NT than 2♥ based on the likely range of hand shapes opposite.