[jillybean]

Does anyone here have knowledge of the opening style where you open 5 card ♠ ♥ & ♦, opening 1♣ could be 1, (12-14 or 15-17 NT)

Thnks.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the only case would be 4441 shape, otherwise it will be 2+, the frequency of the 4441 shape is approx. 3%,
and the specific 4441 would be less than 1%.

In short: I would treat it as a normal 1C opening promising 2+.
And 1C promising 2+ is not much different from 1C promising 3+.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[DavidKok]

Some people at my club play this, in the style Marlowe mentioned.

In the Netherlands it is quite popular to play:
1♣: 2+, may have 4 diamonds in a balanced hand.
1♦: 5+ or exactly 4441 with black shortage
1♥: 5+
1♠: 5+

This is almost but not quite a Balanced club, Unbalanced diamond system in that the 5♦332 hands out of range open 1♦ rather than 1♣. The only "1♣: 1+" system I've seen is simply the above but the 4441 hands with black suit shortage open 1♣ (though personally I'm a fan of opening 1♦ with 1=4=4=4). Because the 4441 hand type is very low frequency all the above are practically identical systems. It is not worth playing different response or rebid structures to cater to such a specific hand.

I do not agree that "1♣ 2+" and "1♣ 3+" are similar. There are some 1♣ 2+ systems where you only open 1♣ on a doubleton with exactly 4=4=3=2 out of your notrump range, and that might as well be a 3+ system. But if you include more balanced hands with longer diamonds in the 1♣ opening the system starts to change - i.e. you have to be more concerned with including weak runouts from partner's 1♣ (which will likely be 18-19 balanced with short clubs opposite your weak hand), and you can play opener for extra diamond length when opening that suit (i.e. give an inverted minor raise or competitive raise on 3-card support). The systems that play 1♦ 5(+) solidly fall into this category.

[nullve]

Two 5551 systems:

Vienna
The New South Wales System

[helene_t]

A have come across it a few times. Those were fairly weak pairs.

It strikes me as a bit silly, as the 4441 hand is fundamentally different from the other hand types that open 1♣, especially if the strength is within your NT range. If 1♣ is in principle 2+ and 1♦ is 5+ so that 4441 "doesn't exist", then I would think that it's a smaller distortion to open 1♦ (you can bid the same way as with 4450, and then maybe at some point you get a chance to make the distinction by suggesting 3NT, or by bypassing the club control). If you open 4441 with 1♣, that specific hand type doesn't resemble anything else that would open 1♣. You will need to discuss specifically how you can pattern out (we don't usually pattern out by bidding four suits!), and who knows how it works after an inverted minor raise.

[P_Marlowe]

DavidKok, on 2023-February-28, 10:33, said:

I do not agree that "1♣ 2+" and "1♣ 3+" are similar. There are some 1♣ 2+ systems where you only open 1♣ on a doubleton with exactly 4=4=3=2 out of your notrump range, and that might as well be a 3+ system. But ...

Similar was meant in the sense, how I would treat if, if I would face this as an opponent, not meant the way the system works as a whole.

[paulg]

helene_t, on 2023-February-28, 11:17, said:

A have come across it a few times. Those were fairly weak pairs.

Just to note that England's Allfrey-Robson played this system in the 2013 Bermuda Bowl (and the European qualifier), but had dropped it by 2015: so it has been played at the highest levels.

[jillybean]

Thanks. I'm not looking to defend against it, I am interested in the system structure.
I know of current NZ Rep players who play it, and club players who play it because it clarifies the 1D opening but in my experience, have it not defined it further.

nullve, on 2023-February-28, 10:45, said:

The New South Wales System

21 pages of systems notes and from the grubby pages, it's nothing new.

[sfi]

jillybean, on 2023-February-28, 20:05, said:

21 pages of systems notes and from the grubby pages, it's nothing new.

I don't know the first set of names mentioned at the bottom of the first page, but most of the second set were dominant in the 1970s. So definitely not new.

[DavidKok]

If you want to play this system I would treat it as a balanced club, unbalanced diamond system and collect notes on those. Pretend the 4=4=4=1 hand is 4=4=3=2, hopefully that is legal in your region even with a small singleton.

[jillybean]

I have no intention of playing it, my question is for my interest only. I was made aware of the "1♣ could be 1" approach from local players who only described the system as clarifying the 1♦ opening and I couldn't see much advantage. I later became aware that my brother & sister in law are playing it, playing on NZ Mixed Teams so it's not a local fad.
As with a lot of treatments, the local players are only using the first bid and don't understand how it affects the rest of their system. I'm as guilty of this as anyone.
I'm waiting to hear back from my brother for his system notes.

[jillybean]

jillybean, on 2023-March-01, 12:13, said:

I'm waiting to hear back from my brother for his system notes.

With our 1 card club, it is basically 3 types of hand.
Clubs
We open all the balanced hands with no outside the 15-17NT range 1C. This has the advantage that you get to show/deny 3 card support for the majors if you play transfer responses.
That leaves 4441 as an awkward shape, so we put it in here as well.

I will send the response details later

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2023-March-01, 15:25, said:

With our 1 card club, it is basically 3 types of hand.
Clubs
We open all the balanced hands with no outside the 15-17NT range 1C. This has the advantage that you get to show/deny 3 card support for the majors if you play transfer responses.
That leaves 4441 as an awkward shape, so we put it in here as well.

I will send the response details later

So in other words: They like Transfer Walsh, and playing 1C as 1+ makes the Transfer Walsh seq. more frequent.

[helene_t]

If you play T-Walsh it may be problematic to open 1♣ with 4441 and strength for a 1NT opening. What do you rebid if partner responds 1♠?