[AL78]

I have been sent this hand from a friend in which a pair got to 7♣ but wondered if they could find 7NT. Assuming they were playing Acol I cannot see a way there and it is hard to be objective seeing both hands, but I was wondering if anyone here could see a route:

---

MPs, dealer West no NS bidding.

[jillybean]

ACOL 2♣ is typically 23+
What do they open with this?

[mw64ahw]

Not sure how relevant ACOL is as I end up with the same auction playing 2/1 although any ACOL partner I play with won't be using Kickbo
1♠-3♣ 6+♣ GI assuming you play this in ACOL
3♦ Shape? -3♠ splinter
4♥ odd KCs ♥ ctrl-5♠ all KCs ♠ void
6N I can count 12 tricks-7N extra trick (♣)

[mikeh]

Test

This is the sort of hand on which one can easily get a silly score.

My start would be very inconvenient.

1S…the west hand is not a 2C bid in my partnerships….move that diamond king into hearts and it’s a differen5 hand even if still 5413

1N response, forcing. Note that this is an awful hand for the increasingly popular semi-forcing 1N, although of course one survives since partner doesn’t have, as one example, KJxxx Jxx Kx Axx.

I’d not bid 2C since we play 2/1 GF and open almost all 11 counts and some shapely 10s….AQJxx Kxxxx xx x is a 1S bid and we’re doomed after 2C.

1S 1N 3C

We use 3C as gf with one of three hand types….massive one suiter, precisely 4 hearts, or a black two-suiter. Responder bids 3D if interested in knowing which…

He’s not interested as such so could bid a natural 4C, which is forcing, because 3C forced to game


Over this west has an interesting problem. We play kickback but we’ve not discussed whether it applies here. I think it does…our default rule would make it kickback and it’s difficult to see what other use it might have. 4N, instead, would be regressive.

If we do get to kickback, responder will show 2 with the Queen. Unfortunately opener simply can’t count tricks and nor can east…opener would be full values with something like AKJxx AQxx x AJx so while 7C is doable, 7N would be a guess…west can bid it if east has 7 clubs and east can bid it if he saw west’s tricks.

Frankly, I’d be happy to be in 7C. I think a good strong club method, especially with relays, should be better suited.

[shyams]

A jokey-funny (but not impossible) sequence:

2NT (20-21) -- 4C (Gerber)
4NT (3 Aces) -- 7C (to play)
Pass

[AL78]

jillybean, on 2024-April-18, 15:38, said:

ACOL 2♣ is typically 23+
What do they open with this?

1♠. There is a case for opening 2NT.

My thinking in an Acol system is 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ but I am unsure how to get to 7NT from there.

[mw64ahw]

AL78, on 2024-April-19, 00:41, said:

1♠. There is a case for opening 2NT.

My thinking in an Acol system is 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ but I am unsure how to get to 7NT from there.

I use the jump to 4♣ to show a self-sustaining suit (usually 7+ and definitely so in this case with West holding AJx although a touch shy of a solid suit). 4♦ then asks for keycards and you are shown 5♣ 2KCs plus Q♣
Now you count tricks 3x♠, 1x♥, 2x♦ 7x♣ and bid 7N. Yes you can get stuffed if East holds a singleton A♦, but unlikely.

[Cyberyeti]

mw64ahw, on 2024-April-18, 16:16, said:

Not sure how relevant ACOL is as I end up with the same auction playing 2/1 although any ACOL partner I play with won't be using Kickbo
1♠-3♣ 6+♣ GI assuming you play this in ACOL
3♦ Shape? -3♠ splinter
4♥ odd KCs ♥ ctrl-5♠ all KCs ♠ void
6N I can count 12 tricks-7N extra trick (♣)

1♠-3♣ in classical Acol is GF, slam interest, one suited so not useful here, we play it as that or GF fit jump, so not useful for us either

We would start 1♠-2♣-2N (GF not necessarily bal)-3♣(5+♣) and now W has a choice between going all in on clubs or bidding his hearts.

The problem here is that W needs to know about the 7th club, E needs to know about the ♠Q for 7N, and I don't think we can find that out.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

reaching 7NT on 31 is not easy, if you get to 7C congrats.

If you get the KC ask done by East, it may be possible to count 13 tricks
without req. ruffs. The 7th clubs is tough to get across, unless you see it.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

AL78, on 2024-April-19, 00:41, said:

1♠. There is a case for opening 2NT.

My thinking in an Acol system is 1♠ - 2♣ - 2♥ but I am unsure how to get to 7NT from there.

3C from responder.


If you can bid 4C as slam interest, with follow ups of 4D, 4H cues, you have managed to get East starting with the KC.
The KC will get you all KCs, 2 Kings (maybe the specific Kings), this means you are still short of 13 tricks without a ruff.

[helene_t]

West needs to know about 7+ clubs with East. Alternatively, East needs to know about ♦K and ♠K, or ♠AK.

In Acol, maybe something like
1♠-2♣
2♥-4♣
4nt-whatever
7nt

Or W could rebid 2NT or 3♥. After a 3♥ rebid, though, 4♣ probably doesn't promise 7.
It is not obvious, though, if 4nt is keycards here. It might be interpreted as natural.

Or maybe E starts with a GF 3♣ bid. That doesn't show 7 but since E has shows a strong hand, W can gamble that E has a 13th trick somewhere: ♦Q, ♥K or ♠J. Or a seventh club.

[AL78]

helene_t, on 2024-April-19, 05:44, said:

1♠-2♣
2♥-4♣

This set of boards was played on the practice beginners evening session and with one pair who asked this is what I suggested before telling West they have a huge hand and leaving them to it, and they managed to get to 6♣.

The problem I see with std Acol even before getting to investigating the best slam is that the East hand is modest in terms of HCP but the value is masively dependant on how well it fits with the East hand. With Hx in clubs opposite there is huge trick taking power but if East holds a singleton club the value of the hand plummets. After West has opened 1♠ followed by 2♥ West is still in the dark about the combined trick taking potential. If on another hand West were to bid 3NT over 3♣ there is still slam potential if the hands fit well, on the other hand it could be a misfit and 3NT is the limit.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Another point to consider / remember: how weak do you open with the majors.
If you open any 10 count with 5/5 in the majors, than you should be careful not to go into overdrive
with responders hand.
It is easy to forget, that you pay a price for opening light, but the lower floor for opening hand
has a price tag.

Before you go looking slam / commit to a strain above 3NT, you need to locate the club fit.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[steve2005]

AL78, on 2024-April-18, 15:31, said:

I have been sent this hand from a friend in which a pair got to 7♣ but wondered if they could find 7NT. Assuming they were playing Acol I cannot see a way there and it is hard to be objective seeing both hands, but I was wondering if anyone here could see a route:

---

MPs, dealer West no NS bidding.

KK relay
1♣16+ 1NT 5+ clubs or 3-suiter short major
2♣ relay 2NT 5+ clubs 4 diamonds short spades
3♣ relay 3NT 0=2=4=7 denying a super strong hand
4♣ controls 4♥ 3 controls
4♠ asks for denial cuebid 5♥ Club A/K, Diamond A/K, Club Queen, no diamond Queen
7NT

[helene_t]

AL78, on 2024-April-19, 06:17, said:

The problem I see with std Acol even before getting to investigating the best slam is that the East hand is modest in terms of HCP but the value is masively dependant on how well it fits with the East hand. With Hx in clubs opposite there is huge trick taking power but if East holds a singleton club the value of the hand plummets. After West has opened 1♠ followed by 2♥ West is still in the dark about the combined trick taking potential. If on another hand West were to bid 3NT over 3♣ there is still slam potential if the hands fit well, on the other hand it could be a misfit and 3NT is the limit.

Good point. So maybe a 2nr rebid from W will work better than 2h as 2nt shows club tolerance.
I am afraid that would be a bad strategy, though. 2nt could lead to down in 3nt when 4h or 6c is cold.

[pescetom]

For us this starts more or less automatically:
1♠ - 2♣
2♥- 3♣
4♣ - ?

After that, 4♦ is Kickback in most partnerships and we are destined to 7♣.

In one more enlightened/tormented partnership 4♦ is a "natural" control-bid and then a masterminding West might just make it to 7NT at MP by skipping his spades (East has already said he is void) in favour of a natural 6NT, which East must convert to 7♣ (he knows we have all the keycards) or 7NT (if he happens to have an extra club). Not something I would do or appreciate however.

[thepossum]

I think you could be resulting too much
I would be happy finding 7 clubs

[pescetom]

thepossum, on 2024-April-22, 15:28, said:

I think you could be resulting too much
I would be happy finding 7 clubs

Not resulting this time, I think.
As said, I would not deviate from basic Italian control-bid logic to suggest 7NT rather than 7♣, although I concede it is logical (if I had a more committed partner than at present we would discuss this and decide for the future).