[foobar]

Assume that the intent was to ask if anyone has tried it? Try searching this forum for SCUM or SCRUM, and if ulven is around, he can provide more details as well.

FWIW, I really like the treatment and combining it with a 14-16 NT in 1st and 2nd makes a lot of sense.

One approach to make it more like a conventional system is the following:

1D: 11-13 bal OR 4M5m
1M: Unbalanced with 5+M, but occasionally 4441 (Spades is always 5+ unless 4=1=4=4)
2m: Natural with 5+; no 4CM
2M: Weak 2s

The advantage is that 1D - 1M - 2m auctions are super well defined now, and you know at least 9-cards in opener's hand. We might occasionally miss a 5-3 major fit, but it usually doesn't matter with the NT range.

[shugart24]

foobar, on 2024-June-09, 17:58, said:

Assume that the intent was to ask if anyone has tried it? Try searching this forum for SCUM or SCRUM, and if ulven is around, he can provide more details as well.

FWIW, I really like the treatment and combining it with a 14-16 NT in 1st and 2nd makes a lot of sense.

One approach to make it more like a conventional system is the following:

1D: 11-13 bal OR 4M5m
1M: Unbalanced with 5+M, but occasionally 4441 (Spades is always 5+ unless 4=1=4=4)
2m: Natural with 5+; no 4CM
2M: Weak 2s

The advantage is that 1D - 1M - 2m auctions are super well defined now, and you know at least 9-cards in opener's hand. We might occasionally miss a 5-3 major fit, but it usually doesn't matter with the NT range.

Yes...good mind reading on what my question was. Thank you

[PrecisionL]

System GEEKS (such as yours truly) try to differentiate balanced hands from unbalanced hands (those with a singleton or perhaps two doubletons) by treating 5332 hands as balanced even if a 5-cd Major. Thus, the question is where to put the 5M332 hands?

1) Into 1NT is a common solution, or

2) Into 1♣ or 1♦ is an exotic solution.

The Granovetters in their GUS System expanded their 1NT range to include 5M332 hands (12-16) in first or second seat. A 5 point range is the maximum allowed by ACBL rules:

12-14 with 5M332, Open 1NT and use 2♣ as puppet Stayman
14-16 with 5M332, jump to 3M over puppet Stayman. (Occasionally will get too high?)
With 14 hcp and NO 5-cd Suit, open 1♦.

In our canape system we have recently added the above design and will test it by using the bidding table on BBO. Experience to be reported back in a month or so.

Sorry, partner refuses to expand the 1NT range from 14-16.

So our main challenge is handling 10-13 hcp balanced openers. We include 5M332 hands in this range by opening 1M with 4 or 5-cds and rebidding 2♦ with 7+ loser hands over partner's 2♣ artificial GI.

[olien]

Ulf and I made some changes to the opening structure about a year ago and have been very happy with the new setup. The opening structure is:

1♣ = 15+ unbal / 18+ bal
1♦ = 11-14, BAL or 6+m. If 6+m then denies 4+M, and may be 5M332 in any seat, but required in 1st/2nd
1M = 11-14, 5+M or 4M-441. Unbal in 1st/2nd
1NT = 15-17
2C = 11-14, 5/4, 4/5, or 5/5+ minors (not 6/4 or 4/6)
2D = weak multi
2M = 11-14, 4*M-5+m
2NT = 20+-22

This structure has worked very well for us and I don't envision us changing it any time soon.

Owen

[PrecisionL]

 olien, on 2024-June-25, 16:29, said:

Ulf and I made some changes to the opening structure about a year ago and have been very happy with the new setup. The opening structure is:1♣ = 15+ unbal / 18+ bal1♦ = 11-14, BAL or 6+m. If 6+m then denies 4+M, and may be 5M332 in any seat, but required in 1st/2nd1M = 11-14, 5+M or 4M-441. Unbal in 1st/2nd1NT = 15-172C = 11-14, 5/4, 4/5, or 5/5+ minors (not 6/4 or 4/6)2D = weak multi2M = 11-14, 4*M-5+m2NT = 20+-22This structure has worked very well for us and I don't envision us changing it any time soon.Owen

Thanks Owen, glad you two are still partners.

Are you playing pairs and teams, one more than the other? Curious.

By the way, our system design for 1♦ openings is 11-13 balanced or a canape into a 5-cd suit. The side benefit is that 1M reply to 1♦ shows a 5-cd Major.

[shugart24]

olien, on 2024-June-25, 16:29, said:

Ulf and I made some changes to the opening structure about a year ago and have been very happy with the new setup. The opening structure is:

1♣ = 15+ unbal / 18+ bal
1♦ = 11-14, BAL or 6+m. If 6+m then denies 4+M, and may be 5M332 in any seat, but required in 1st/2nd
1M = 11-14, 5+M or 4M-441. Unbal in 1st/2nd
1NT = 15-17
2C = 11-14, 5/4, 4/5, or 5/5+ minors (not 6/4 or 4/6)
2D = weak multi
2M = 11-14, 4*M-5+m
2NT = 20+-22

This structure has worked very well for us and I don't envision us changing it any time soon.

Owen

Can you share the responses to 2M ? I am experimenting putting the 5M332 hands into 1D or 1NT with some success , and a couple of your bids would seem to fit in nicely and I may like to piggy-back off of what you have already developed

[foobar]

shugart24, on 2024-August-03, 04:30, said:

Can you share the responses to 2M ? I am experimenting putting the 5M332 hands into 1D or 1NT with some success , and a couple of your bids would seem to fit in nicely and I may like to piggy-back off of what you have already developed

Note that in ACBL-land, multi-2D can be used only in limited high level settings. You can of course choose to give up weak 2s and use 2D for something else, but it's something to keep in mind.

[helene_t]

Unbalanced 1M openings are also found in the Auken-Welland system. I suppose it makes uncontested auctions more elegant (in the A-W system, it allows 1NT to be the GF relay instead of 2♣).

But I wonder if it's worth the price. I would think that in any 5-card major system (whether it's strong club or "natural"), the 1M openings work ok most of the time, and the biggest problem is the nebulous minor suit opening(s) in contested auctions.

[Shugart23]

foobar, on 2024-August-03, 22:43, said:

Note that in ACBL-land, multi-2D can be used only in limited high level settings. You can of course choose to give up weak 2s and use 2D for something else, but it's something to keep in mind.

yes, I saw that...We are using 2D for any 3 suited hand...I also note that he uses 3 different bids to show 3 different NT distributions instead of just 1 bid using a laddering approach.

But his 2M opening I think fits nicely with putting 5M332 into the 1D or 1NT bid. (It's nice to know opening 1M guarantees a two suited hand or length.) His approach would gives more clarity to the 1D opening and responses, but I would also have to redefine our 2C opening.

[Shugart23]

foobar, on 2024-August-03, 22:43, said:

Note that in ACBL-land, multi-2D can be used only in limited high level settings. You can of course choose to give up weak 2s and use 2D for something else, but it's something to keep in mind.

yes, I saw that...We are using 2D for any 3 suited hand...I also note that he uses 3 different bids to show 3 different NT distributions instead of just 1 bid using a laddering approach.

But his 2M opening I think fits nicely with putting 5M332 into the 1D or 1NT bid. (It's nice to know opening 1M guarantees a two suited hand or length.) His approach would gives more clarity to the 1D opening and responses, but I would also have to redefine our 2C opening.

[foobar]

Shugart23, on 2024-August-04, 04:36, said:

yes, I saw that...We are using 2D for any 3 suited hand...I also note that he uses 3 different bids to show 3 different NT distributions instead of just 1 bid using a laddering approach.

But his 2M opening I think fits nicely with putting 5M332 into the 1D or 1NT bid. (It's nice to know opening 1M guarantees a two suited hand or length.) His approach would gives more clarity to the 1D opening and responses, but I would also have to redefine our 2C opening.

I think you're better off folding 4441M (open 1H unless 4=1=4=4) into 1H/1S and treating 1M as unbalanced in first and second. This way you get the advantages of (almost 100%) 5CM unbalanced openings. Note that the 1D opening already handles the single suited minor hands, so 2C/2D can be 5+4m, freeing up 2N for possibly a strong balanced range (say 19/20 or 20/21).

This nicely splits up the balanced ranges:

1C: 17-18 OR 21+
1D: 11-13
1N: 14-16
2N: 19-20

This might help clarify the balanced ranges in case of interference over 1C).

Note that ulven uses 2N for the 64 minor hands, but this is another possibility.

[shugart24]

foobar, on 2024-August-04, 09:41, said:

I think you're better off folding 4441M (open 1H unless 4=1=4=4) into 1H/1S and treating 1M as unbalanced in first and second. This way you get the advantages of (almost 100%) 5CM unbalanced openings. Note that the 1D opening already handles the single suited minor hands, so 2C/2D can be 5+4m, freeing up 2N for possibly a strong balanced range (say 19/20 or 20/21).

This nicely splits up the balanced ranges:

1C: 17-18 OR 21+
1D: 11-13
1N: 14-16
2N: 19-20

This might help clarify the balanced ranges in case of interference over 1C).

Note that ulven uses 2N for the 64 minor hands, but this is another possibility.

Thanks for the comments. If the 4441 hand is folded into 1H or 1S, what are the rebids when bidding goes 1H-1NT or 1S-1NT ? Jumping to 2NT or the 3-level seems pretty risky to show the 4441 distribution when partner may only have a 6 HCP hand.

BTW, I took my son to his first ever club game yesterday and we scored a 54 percent and he gor his first look at bidding boxes and his first black and red master points. I think he is hooked

[foobar]

shugart24, on 2024-August-06, 09:47, said:

Thanks for the comments. If the 4441 hand is folded into 1H or 1S, what are the rebids when bidding goes 1H-1NT or 1S-1NT ? Jumping to 2NT or the 3-level seems pretty risky to show the 4441 distribution when partner may only have a 6 HCP hand.

BTW, I took my son to his first ever club game yesterday and we scored a 54 percent and he gor his first look at bidding boxes and his first black and red master points. I think he is hooked

There's no need to jump to the 3-level over the 1N response. A 2m response will almost always be 5M-4m.

It might be best to use 1M - 2C as the canonical GF, with 1M - 2D as invite hands that can't immediately GF. This leaves several 3-level bids besides 2M and 2N as various raises of 1M.

The 1N response should be a hand that doesn't fit any of the above, but didn't want to pass 1M immediately.

[nullve]

foobar, on 2024-August-08, 18:03, said:

There's no need to jump to the 3-level over the 1N response. A 2m response will almost always be 5M-4m.

It might be best to use 1M - 2C as the canonical GF, with 1M - 2D as invite hands that can't immediately GF. This leaves several 3-level bids besides 2M and 2N as various raises of 1M.

The 1N response should be a hand that doesn't fit any of the above, but didn't want to pass 1M immediately.

How do you avoid violating Burn's Law after 1M-1N; 2m-2M and maybe also 1♥-1♠; 1N/2m-2♥?

[foobar]

 nullve, on 2024-August-09, 13:45, said:

How do you avoid violating Burn's Law after 1M-1N; 2m-2M and maybe also 1♥-1♠; 1N/2m-2♥?

Opener is under no obligation to bid over 1M - 1N and may choose to pass with 4441 (probably should unless maybe absolute max that couldn't stand to open 1N). 1H - 1S - 1N should specifically show 1=4=4=4, so it's a non issue?

[nullve]

 foobar, on 2024-August-10, 11:02, said:

Opener is under no obligation to bid over 1M - 1N and may choose to pass with 4441 (probably should unless maybe absolute max that couldn't stand to open 1N).

And you will not miss some 26-27 hcp games after 1M-1N; P?

[foobar]

 nullve, on 2024-August-10, 12:39, said:

And you will not miss some 26-27 hcp games after 1M-1N; P?

1M - 2D handles most invites, so 1N is capped at a bad 11. Given the extremely low frequency of 4441s with 14-15 that couldn't open 1N, it's not something that's worth too much thought. In fact, I don't recall a single hand where it's been an issue.

[shugart24]

foobar, on 2024-August-10, 13:26, said:

1M - 2D handles most invites, so 1N is capped at a bad 11. Given the extremely low frequency of 4441s with 14-15 that couldn't open 1N, it's not something that's worth too much thought. In fact, I don't recall a single hand where it's been an issue.

Our 1NT response is unlimited strength...could have 25 HCP. unless already a passed hand..1M-1NT is absolutely forcing in our system.

We are using much of OCP (Oliver Clarke's Precision system) as our framework although he doesn't put 5M332 into 1NT or 1D

[foobar]

1N as GF can work just fine (and maybe you can have other hand types too). Then it's easy to dump the 4441s into say 2N.

[effervesce]

The system me and my partner played to extreme success was had the following

1C* = 16+ ANY unbalanced or 17+ balanced
1D* = 10-15, 0+ diamonds, no 5 card major or 6 card minor (not balanced 11-13)
1H = 10-15, 5+ hearts
1S = 10-15, 5+ spades
1NT* = balanced, 11-13 in 1st/2nd, balanced 14-16 in 3rd/4th seat
2C = 10-15, 6+ clubs
2D = 10-15, 6+ diamonds
2H = about 5-9, weak 2, 6 card suit
2S = about 5-9, weak 2, 6 card suit

Like you said, it makes the 1D - 1X - 2m bids quite well defined.

We saw extreme success with this, winning some junior and open tournaments until life and work made me stop playing.