[pescetom]

Nowhere near as intriguing, but still fresh from the club and a good test of methods and judgement.

MP

---

NS remain silent throughout.
How do you both bid with your preferred agreements, where do you end up and how happy are you with it?

[akwoo]

2C-2D-2H-2S-2N-3D-3H-3N-4H

1C-1D-2H-2S-2N-3D-3H-3N-4H

With better hearts I might have chosen to play 3N.

[Capt_Ravi]

pescetom, on 2024-October-16, 16:14, said:

Nowhere near as intriguing, but still fresh from the club and a good test of methods and judgement.

MP

---

NS remain silent throughout.
How do you both bid with your preferred agreements, where do you end up and how happy are you with it?

Nice Kokish relay sequence. This would be my preferred bidding sequence

[jdiana]

That is nice. We're not that fancy:

2♣ - 2♦ (GF) - 3NT (24-25 HCP) - P

Not as good but c'est la vie.

[mw64ahw]

A variation given I try and max. out the strong hands in my Multi 2♦ so can preempt with greater confidence.
2♦ Rainbow multi - 2♥ default
2N 24-25 - 3♦ transfer
3♥ - 3♠ denies 4♠
3N/4♥
Tempted with 3N with those tenaces

[DavidKok]

In standard:

2♣ (strong) - 2♦ (waiting);
2♥ (Birthright) - 2♠ (forced);
2NT (24-25) - 3♦ (GF transfer to hearts);
3♥ (confirms fit, sets trumps, denies a superaccept) - 4♥ (no slam interest).

In strong club:
1♣ (strong) - 1♦ (0-7 any);
1♥ (unbal 4(+)♥ or 20+ balanced) - 3♥ (0-4, 5♥);
4♥
If you consider the East hand worth an upgrade into the 5-7 range the rebid would be 2♠ (5-7, 4(+)♥, short spades) though I think that's not a good decision.

In strong club without the Cambridge Heart Complex:
1♣ (strong) - 1♦ (0-7 any);
2♥ (Birthright) - 2♠ (forced);
2NT (24-25) - 3♦ (GF transfer to hearts);
3♥ (confirms fit, sets trumps) - 3♠ (control);
3NT (Non-serious) - 4♥ (not a maximum in the 0-7 range)
In this system it might be difficult to stop in 4♥.


I'm very happy to be in 4♥, though 3NT by West also looks fine (a triple stopper in every suit so there's time to set up the hearts if they break 3-2 or you can find the 9, though at MPs I'd be tempted to burn the diamond entry to reduce the heart losers to 1 if I can find South's honour).
Without all my fancy gadgets it is really difficult to bid these very strong hands - as it should be. Such strong hands are very rare, and allocating your precious bidding space and limited study time to it is not a good idea.

[pescetom]

A beginner pair playing "natural" with no conventions except 5 card majors and strong NT bid this as:
3NT 4♥
P(slow)
which impressed me despite the BIT

The strongest pair in the room (but somewhat vulnerable to overbidding confiding in superior declarer play) bid to 6NT (no idea of the auction) and made it easily on a lucky layout with ♥Q stiff in South (I can imagine the comment of al78 if he was a club member).
Most were in 4♥+2 with two in 3NT+3.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-October-17, 02:06, said:

In standard:

2♣ (strong) - 2♦ (waiting);
2♥ (Birthright) - 2♠ (forced);
2NT (24-25) - 3♦ (GF transfer to hearts);
3♥ (confirms fit, sets trumps, denies a superaccept) - 4♥ (no slam interest).

The use of Birthright was more common than I expected in my club (3 tables, slowly getting there).
Do all agree with Davidkok that 3♥ confirms fit and sets trumps here?
For me it could be 2 cards without 5 card spades, and it is up to responder to set trumps with a control-bid or 4♥.
I guess the point in question is whether 3NT would be natural choice of game (as for me) or Non-Serious (which would be useful here, I concede).

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2024-October-17, 15:04, said:

The use of Birthright was more common than I expected in my club (3 tables, slowly getting there).
Do all agree with Davidkok that 3♥ confirms fit and sets trumps here?
For me it could be 2 cards without 5 card spades, and it is up to responder to set trumps with a control-bid or 4♥.
I guess the point in question is whether 3NT would be natural choice of game (as for me) or Non-Serious (which would be useful here, I concede).

I complete with 2/3♥, bid 3♠ with 5233 and 3N with 3244 in case responder has values for a minor suit slam.
It also suprises me that having identified 'birthright' as an approach to play, there is a lack of progression to adjusting the notrump ladder to play 'reverse' with 20-21.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2024-October-17, 15:04, said:

Do all agree with Davidkok that 3♥ confirms fit and sets trumps here?

I play(ed) the same structure over a 2NT opener (20-21). The point is that it is so often bad to stop in 3M exactly, that it is better to treat the Jacoby transfers over it as forcing to game. You then gain a bunch of valuable room for slam investigation by staying lower with a fit and being more descriptive on the non-fits. I wrote about this in a bit more detail on the other site. One point of discussion is whether the transfer completion should show the fit or deny the fit, but either way using the transfers as forcing to game is a winner.
When opener has shown 24-25 the case is even stronger, but I prefer the same approach over 20-21 and 22-23.

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2024-October-17, 15:42, said:

I complete with 2/3♥, bid 3♠ with 5233 and 3N with 3244 in case responder has values for a minor suit slam

That's what I would do with most partners too (in one more eccentric partnership neither 3♠ nor 3N denies a singleton in hearts).

[apollo1201]

 DavidKok, on 2024-October-17, 15:52, said:

I play(ed) the same structure over a 2NT opener (20-21). The point is that it is so often bad to stop in 3M exactly, that it is better to treat the Jacoby transfers over it as forcing to game. You then gain a bunch of valuable room for slam investigation by staying lower with a fit and being more descriptive on the non-fits. I wrote about this in a bit more detail on the other site. One point of discussion is whether the transfer completion should show the fit or deny the fit, but either way using the transfers as forcing to game is a winner.
When opener has shown 24-25 the case is even stronger, but I prefer the same approach over 20-21 and 22-23.

+1

You can then use 3NT (or 3S over JH) after the acceptance as please start cueing, while 4m is descriptive, 54 at least, looking for nice fillers and no waste on the other suits for slam. Or a 44 fit that might play better for slam.

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2024-October-17, 15:52, said:

I play(ed) the same structure over a 2NT opener (20-21). The point is that it is so often bad to stop in 3M exactly, that it is better to treat the Jacoby transfers over it as forcing to game. You then gain a bunch of valuable room for slam investigation by staying lower with a fit and being more descriptive on the non-fits. I wrote about this in a bit more detail on the other site. One point of discussion is whether the transfer completion should show the fit or deny the fit, but either way using the transfers as forcing to game is a winner.
When opener has shown 24-25 the case is even stronger, but I prefer the same approach over 20-21 and 22-23.

Sure, but unless I am mistaken you miss the point.
The issue is not whether responder should be able to invite a 2 point range (surely not) but whether completion of transfer fixes trumps.
Which implicitly links to the availability or not to Responder of of Non-Serious and the existence or not to Opener of bids that deny 3 card fit.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2024-October-17, 15:57, said:

Sure, but unless I am mistaken you miss the point.
The issue is not whether responder should be able to invite a 2 point range (surely not) but whether completion of transfer fixes trumps.
Which implicitly links to the availability or not to Responder of of Non-Serious and the existence or not to Opener of bids that deny 3 card fit.

You are mistaken.

For me on 2NT-3♥ (showing spades), the non-fit rebid is 3NT. If your 3♥ is possibly weak this is not a great idea. By taking the non-fit hands out of the 3♠ rebid I can use that bid instead to set the trump suit while denying a super-accept hand.
The point I was raising is that you might wish to invert this scheme, using 3NT as the fit-non-superaccept and 3♠ as the non-fit. This loses space on the fit hands and also means the siding for the contract has not been determined yet in case of a fit, but gains space on the non-fit hands. On balance I think this is worse.

Standard is to super-accept with 4-card support and perhaps some nice hands with 3-card support, and then give a 'mandatory' transfer completion with 2-card support or most hands with 3-card support. This is the style I want to avoid, as it does not clarify our degree of fit in time for responder to re-evaluate their hand.