[jdiana]

I'm sure this has been addressed many times before, but does anyone have any guidance (or better yet, simulations) on the effectiveness of opening light in third seat, and how light "light" should be?

I've never been super aggressive about opening light but will do so on occasion. Our old notes required a floor of 10 HCP, based on the ACBL Basic Chart which allows natural one-level openings with at least 10 HCP or a hand that meets the Rule of 19. That chart is now used only for games with a MP limit of 300. The Basic+ Chart (up to 3,000 MPs) allows natural one-level openings of 8 HCP or a hand that meets the Rule of 17.

I'm not sure I want to open that light but I'd be interested in any insights regarding the actual effectiveness of light openings in third seat. You should assume declarer skills common to ordinary club players (not Bob Hamman). We played two-way reverse Drury, if that's relevant, though I'd be open to persuasion on that.

I'm sure jillybean will suggest that I use the Rule of 16 and 24 for this decision, but I'd be interested in other views as well.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-November-19, 20:08, said:

I'm sure jillybean will suggest that I use the Rule of 16 and 24 for this decision, but I'd be interested in other views as well.

I have no idea or desire to know what rule 16 and 24 say.

I will open aggressively in 3rd seat.. AKJxx looks good at any vulnerability. Am I breaking any rules if I open on AJxxx ?

If it comes around, uncontested to partner, he knows what my 3rd seat openings are like and we have Drury.
We have Very light 3rd seat openings checked on our CC

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-November-19, 20:46, said:

I have no idea or desire to know what rule 16 and 24 say.

I will open aggressively in 3rd seat.. AKJxx looks good at any vulnerability. Am I breaking any rules if I open on AJxxx ?

If it comes around, uncontested to partner, he knows what my 3rd seat openings are like and we have Drury.
We have Very light 3rd seat openings checked on our CC

Just joking - I know how you hate rules.

Have you ever tried to do an analysis of how often opening light works well for you?

Regarding your example, unless you have more HCP somewhere or a 7-card side suit, opening 1 of a suit with AJxxx would not be an allowed bidding agreement in a tournament governed by the ACBL Basic+ Chart (i.e., any ACBL event where the upper limit per player is 3000 or less). Rule of 17 = Your HCP + the number of cards in your two longest suits >= 17.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-November-19, 21:03, said:

Just joking - I know how you hate rules.

Have you ever tried to do an analysis of how often opening light works well for you?

Regarding your example, unless you have a 7-card side suit, opening 1 of a suit with AJxxx would not be an allowed bidding agreement in a tournament governed by the ACBL Basic+ Chart (i.e., any ACBL event where the upper limit per player is 3000 or less).

I have no idea how to run analysis of light openings. Extra light does not seem to be causing us problems, which is as much analysis as we have done.

We are not it the <3000 so I hope we are not breaking any rules.

[mw64ahw]

It may also be worth comparing light openings versus 5-card Major Weak 2s

[jdiana]

jillybean, on 2024-November-19, 21:17, said:

I have no idea how to run analysis of light openings. Extra light does not seem to be causing us problems, which is as much analysis as we have done.

We are not it the <3000 so I hope we are not breaking any rules.

You're good. In that rarified air, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

[jdiana]

mw64ahw, on 2024-November-19, 23:52, said:

It may also be worth comparing light openings versus 5-card Major Weak 2s

Yes - I'm mostly wondering about one-level openings but I definitely preempt more aggressively in third seat, especially at favorable vulnerability.

[P_Marlowe]

The main problem for a natural system: the 1 level opening bids in a suit are pretty wide ranging,
if you go regular low in 3rd position this problem gets worse.
Being in 3rd seat means, your partner denied opening bid strength, i.e. this mitigates some of the
wide range issues.
To really get a handle on this would mean, that you need to add. art. bids as response to a possible
light opening, and I dont think (Reverse / 2-way) Drury is enough.

You have constructive openings (1 level suit openings, strong openings) and you have destructive openings,
if you feel the urge to open some hands below opening strength with a 5 card major, open it as a weak two,
this preserves the integrity of your constructive openings.

[jillybean]

jdiana, on 2024-November-20, 07:10, said:

You're good. In that rarified air, you can pretty much do whatever you want.

You should be playing in the Open, don’t play in BCD. It is a completely different game.

[mycroft]

If I'm opening light in third seat (and I'm not an expert, so take my opinion for what it's worth), I have one of three reasons:

• I have a suit I want led if we defend (jillybean's AKJxx/AJxxx);
  
• I have spades and shape that is comfortable winning the partscore (or I have hearts and sufficient spades that I don't expect they have a fit, and if they do they won't like it much);
  
• I think the opponents will have more trouble bidding on defence than if I let them open.

Please note that on the third one, it pretty much has to have elements of at least one of the first two, because partner will aggressively compete/lead my suit on defence, and -800s/-730s into nothing tend to dampen partner's enthusiasm for "aggressively compet[ing]" next time.

But everybody bids less well when overcalling than when opening. One of the hallmarks of an expert is how little worse they are (and how well they judge to punish you when you're wrong); but it's still not the same.

Now, the most important thing here is "what does partner expect me to have?" and "does partner handle being put in a losing position, when I could have passed instead, well?" As always, theoretical advantages (or other people's opinion, even other people whose opinion you trust) lose to "but partner doesn't like it when I do"/"partner never reads it right"/"partner doesn't ignore the possibility and we miss games too often when I *didn't* open light this time too often" every day of the week.

[apollo1201]

Opening light in 3rd aims at competing (winning the partscore, pushing opps too high, finding a profitable sacrifice), giving a good lead to partner, and disturbing opps.

Basically what an over call does.

So as long as you would have a clear over call, then opening is ok.

So yes, pretty normal AKJxx at green (5431 shape I might go for it at red as well), but I will pass Kxx Qxxxx Qx Kxx even if it is 2 HCP higher.

[DavidKok]

You asked for analysis - I don't have a systematic overview. I do have a lot of bad experiences opening light in third, and very few good ones. In general I score much better opening a weak 2 on a 5-card suit in third seat than opening at the 1-level, especially in a major suit. There was a fun example at a table I was kibitzing just this Monday, third seat favourable holding ♠xx, ♥KJxxx, ♦Axxx, ♣xx. The auction went P-(P)-1♥-(2♦); X-(P)-2♥-a.p. for -2 as partner had a 10-count 4=2=2=5 and nothing makes. If 2♥ had been chosen LHO would have overcalled 3♦ for -1.

Drury is cute, but the odds that fourth seat is not in the auction aren't that great (and if this happens it might be a trap pass style hand - beware). Especially if you open aggressively in first and your opponents open aggressively in second, the chances that fourth seat is strong are quite high. So expect a competitive auction, where partner may be under pressure to act with their 10- or even 11-count.

Jan Eric Larsson mentioned this in his short pamphlet on bidding systems, recommending using the 2-level openings for interference and the 1-level openings for constructive bidding. I think this is a sound idea, both in a natural system and in a limited opening system. The chance that partner has a maximum pass and enters the auction too enthusiastically after we open light is considerable. So in general I am not a fan of light third seat 1-level openings.

[jdiana]

Thanks all for your comments - I've been reviewing some of the basics and this is very helpful!