[Bill Hook]

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My partner a I play 5-card major system, Strong NT (15-17) and 1C may be short.

I opened 1C with above hand (passed Rule of 20).
When partner responded 1H, showing his 4-card major, I responded 2C showing 5 clubs and minimum hand
- my understanding is that a 2D rebid would show 16+ HCP (above the barrier).

Partner's rebid was 2D.
Thinking he had a 4-card diamond suit and as few as 6 HCP I passed.

Both 3NT and 5D are makeable contracts with the above hands.

Advice on how best to reach game contract would be appreciated.

[mw64ahw]

There are many ways to force here, but perhaps the most straightforward is to play Walsh style where you bid ♦ and reverse into ♥ with a GF/GI hand and play as above with a weaker one offering a choice of suits.

My esoteric approach playing an unbalanced ♦ starts with
1♦ 3+ - 1♠ GI
1N 543x - 2♥ 6♦4♥

[Bill Hook]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-November-21, 04:55, said:

There are many ways to force here, but perhaps the most straightforward is to play Walsh style where you bid ♦ and reverse into ♥ with a GF/GI hand and play as above with a weaker one offering a choice of suits.

My esoteric approach playing an unbalanced ♦ starts with
1♦ 3+ - 1♠ GI
1N 543x - 2♥ 6♦4♥

Thanks for your response but I don't know if I'm reading it correctly.
Are you suggesting that North should open 1D rather than 1C ? I don't understand why.
And South's responds 1S ? How is this bid Game invitational ?

In response to my 1NT rebid you say partner's 2H shows 6♦4♥
- is this bid game forcing and would you (North) choose 3NT or 5D ?


I'm not up to speed on the Walsh Club Convention - if I read up on it I might understand you better.

[johnu]

With a game forcing hand, (yes, I would force to game with the South hand), responder should respond in their longest suit, 1♦, planning to show hearts later.

That being said, the 2♦ rebid should be considered as forcing, ie third suit forcing (3rd suit forcing The example in the link is the same auction that you had.

[johnu]

 mw64ahw, on 2024-November-21, 04:55, said:

There are many ways to force here, but perhaps the most straightforward is to play Walsh style where you bid ♦ and reverse into ♥ with a GF/GI hand and play as above with a weaker one offering a choice of suits.

Standard bidding is to respond 1♦, Walsh or not.

[awm]

I know this is too simple for modern bidders but:

1♣-1♦ (bidding my longest suit)
2♦-2♥ (supporting with support, 2♥ control showing)
2nt-3nt (showing the spade cards and responder bids game)

I suppose responder could push for slam more and wind up in 5♦. But either game seems okay.

Bridge is a lot easier when you bid your suits in length order, but of course this is not the modern style.

[Bill Hook]

 johnu, on 2024-November-21, 05:33, said:

Standard bidding is to respond 1♦, Walsh or not.

I take your point that South should respond 1D (forcing) and rebid hearts on round 2.

Re. 2♦ bid being 3rd suit forcing
- how should the bidding progress to game ?
- game in 3NT or 5D ?

Thanks for your advice.

[Bill Hook]

 awm, on 2024-November-21, 05:57, said:

I know this is too simple for modern bidders but:

1♣-1♦ (bidding my longest suit)
2♦-2♥ (supporting with support, 2♥ control showing)
2nt-3nt (showing the spade cards and responder bids game)

I suppose responder could push for slam more and wind up in 5♦. But either game seems okay.

Bridge is a lot easier when you bid your suits in length order, but of course this is not the modern style.

Thanks for this advice.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#0 Opening the hand is ok, but is not matadory, due to a lack of rebid and due to the poor suit.
Switch the minors, and you have a rebid.

#1 assuming you play Walsh, i.e. you are bidding 4 card majors in favor of longer diamonds, you still start with diamonds,
if holding a game force. (*)
Has South a gameforce oppossite an opening? This has the partnership to answer, most would say yes, but see 0.

#2 Ending up in 2D is not brilliant, but it happens.
I am not very familar with Walsh, but I guess the seq. your p choose, showed longer diamonds and at most an inv. hand,
which he has, kind of, but see 2, so passing was ok.
Sometimes you end up in silly contracts.

(*) If 1H excludes inv. hands with longer diamonds, than obv. 1H is wrong.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

 johnu, on 2024-November-21, 05:33, said:

Standard bidding is to respond 1♦, Walsh or not.

Walsh style will show the Major first with a weak hand and Diamonds first followed by the Major with a GF/GI hand.


Standard shows the longest suit first, but not too sure whether this is still the majority approach given Transfer Walsh etc.

[jdiana]

One other thought is that North might have opened 1♦ to avoid a rebid problem. You can anticipate a 1♥ response and you're not strong enough to reverse into diamonds after a 1♣ opening. (Opener's 2♣ rebid should promise 6 cards.) Not sure that would be any smoother. Maybe:

1♦ - 1♥
2♣ - 2♠ (4th suit forcing)
2NT (♠ stopper) - 3NT or 3♦
3NT or 5♦ (if responder bid 3♦)?

[jillybean]

Enough of these others distractions, this:

 awm, on 2024-November-21, 05:57, said:

I know this is too simple for modern bidders but:

1♣-1♦ (bidding my longest suit)
2♦-2♥ (supporting with support, 2♥ control showing)
2nt-3nt (showing the spade cards and responder bids game)

I suppose responder could push for slam more and wind up in 5♦. But either game seems okay.

Bridge is a lot easier when you bid your suits in length order, but of course this is not the modern style.

[Bill Hook]

Thank you all for your replies.

The reply above from awm is the most straightforward for Intermediate Bs like my partner and myself.

(I had forgotten that partner did not need to show his major on Round 1 when strong enough to rebid)

[mikeh]

 Bill Hook, on 2024-November-21, 05:24, said:

Thanks for your response but I don't know if I'm reading it correctly.
Are you suggesting that North should open 1D rather than 1C ? I don't understand why.
And South's responds 1S ? How is this bid Game invitational ?

In response to my 1NT rebid you say partner's 2H shows 6♦4♥
- is this bid game forcing and would you (North) choose 3NT or 5D ?


I'm not up to speed on the Walsh Club Convention - if I read up on it I might understand you better.

Whether to open the north hand is, imo, a close matter. What to open is also close.

The problem is that it’s easy to foresee an auction in which opener’s second bid is a nightmare, as indeed happened (although it ought not to have happened). After 1C 1H, rebidding 2C on Kxxxx and a minimum, misfitting hand, is ugly. That’s why some recommend opening 1D with 4=5 in the minors and the inability to rebid 1N over an awkward response. The idea is that you rebid 2C. This is a fairly popular approach, although less so these days than it used to be, in part because quite a few players now feel ok rebidding 1N with a stiff in partner’s major.

Personally, I don’t open 1D on 4=5 minors unless my diamonds are much stronger than my clubs, since responder sometimes has to take a preference back to diamonds on a doubleton and I don’t like playing in contracts where the opps have more trump than does our side. At least if our diamonds are strong we may have a fighting chance.

If I were playing a basic 2/1 I’m not sure I’d open. One useful principle of hand evaluation is to look where your hcp are..not merely how many you have. Hcp in long suits….good….because high cards in long suits can help establish length cards as tricks. High cards in short suits help control that suit but, unless partner has length there, they don’t promote length winners.

Since this is an 11 count with serious rebid problems and more than half the hcp in my three card suit, I’d pass.

Having opened (I’d open in my two partnerships simply because we don’t pass many 11 counts, but it’s not an approach I’d recommend to an intermediate player), responder absolutely should respond 1D, intending to reverse into 2H on the next round, showing (not by the 1D bid but by the 2H reverse) 4+ hearts, longer diamonds , and game force values.

I wouldn’t worry about Walsh. It’s a fairly common approach by a lot of 2/1 players, but it’s a little more complex than suggested in the comments here. Plus it has nothing to do with this hand. Had responder had a weaker hand, same shape, Walsh players would respond 1H and be stuck over your 2C rebid, since 2D is potentially artificial and is forcing. Give responder Jxx KJxx Axxxxx x and he’s well and truly screwed (as an aside, it’s problems like this thst have some good players rebidding 1N over 1H….and it’s fairly common to play that responder can get out in 2D…the usual way is to play two way new minor, where 2C forces 2D, either to play or for responder to make a natural, invitational bid…bidding 2D over 1N is an artificial game force). As it is, responder is worth a game force opposite an opening bid and thus can respond in his long suit. This catches a raise and now the hand becomes very good.

[mike777]

 Bill Hook, on 2024-November-21, 04:42, said:

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My partner a I play 5-card major system, Strong NT (15-17) and 1C may be short.

I opened 1C with above hand (passed Rule of 20).
When partner responded 1H, showing his 4-card major, I responded 2C showing 5 clubs and minimum hand
- my understanding is that a 2D rebid would show 16+ HCP (above the barrier).

Partner's rebid was 2D.
Thinking he had a 4-card diamond suit and as few as 6 HCP I passed.

Both 3NT and 5D are makeable contracts with the above hands.

Advice on how best to reach game contract would be appreciated.

What a terrific hand to post and discuss. There is so much going on with this deal, one could spend days or weeks discussing all the issues it raises. Or as Adam suggested you could simply bid your longest suits in order and game force the hand.

The other posters have raised many issues on this deal, I will only add one. If you do open 1D, and many playing 2/1 players might, then EW are going to get in on the bidding and complicate the hand even more.

Great hand and ty for posting the problem.

[Bill Hook]

Thanks again for all the insights provided.

In future I would be inclined to pass similar hand - it would certainly save me rebukes from my partner for passing his 2♦

[Cyberyeti]

 Bill Hook, on 2024-November-21, 13:07, said:

Thanks again for all the insights provided.

In future I would be inclined to pass similar hand - it would certainly save me rebukes from my partner for passing his 2♦

Don't, it's a bidder's game.

I don't play your type of system at all, but I'm surprised nobody has suggested avoiding the rebid issue with 1♣-1♥-1N although partner would normally respond 1♦ which you just raise.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2024-November-21, 13:33, said:

Don't, it's a bidder's game.

I don't play your type of system at all, but I'm surprised nobody has suggested avoiding the rebid issue with 1♣-1♥-1N although partner would normally respond 1♦ which you just raise.

Mike H, discussed this a bit. Again so many issues, funny enough passing this hand can create other issues if you open light or aggressively, fascinating deal.

[jillybean]

 mikeh, on 2024-November-21, 10:56, said:

Having opened (I’d open in my two partnerships simply because we don’t pass many 11 counts, but it’s not an approach I’d recommend to an intermediate player), responder absolutely should respond 1D, intending to reverse into 2H on the next round, showing (not by the 1D bid but by the 2H reverse) 4+ hearts, longer diamonds , and game force values.

"but it's not an approach I'd recommend to an intermediate player", please elaborate.
I agree it is a marginal hand playing 2/1,but otherwise "intermediates should pass many 11 counts" because they don't have experience continuing opposite a partner who has a gf raise, they may lack the declarer play to bring home what could be a marginal contract, or?