[Cyberyeti]

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You are playing a form of Acol where 1♠ can be 4 but is only 4 in a 4333 strong notrump, so you can be fairly sure partner has 4 for 3♠.

How do you take this forward ? (Matchpoints)

[pescetom]

With 4♦, what else?
Now 4♥ by partner should affirm clubs control and 4♠ deny it (tough luck if someone else blasted 6♠ and made it on a hearts lead).

[mw64ahw]

4♦ is clear or a blast to 6♠, but that may miss the grand. Assuming 3♠ is a limit raise then there aren't many points left to distribute so I wonder which suit they are in?. Assuming I get a 4♥ response (denying ♥ control), I'll re-cue ♥ showing odd keycards.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-May-31, 02:53, said:

With 4♦, what else?
Now 4♥ by partner should affirm clubs control and 4♠ deny it (tough luck if someone else blasted 6♠ and made it on a hearts lead).

I decided I didn't want the bottom in 4♠ or 6♠ by pinpointing the club lead so considered this but rejected it.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

4H is also a sensible option, it should be shortage, and p will value any values outside hearts high,
and the only suit he can have values happens to be clubs.

As it is, p was under pressure, he may have streched to bid 3S.

Blasting is also ok.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-May-31, 04:10, said:

Hi,

4H is also a sensible option, it should be shortage, and p will value any values outside hearts high,
and the only suit he can have values happens to be clubs.

As it is, p was under pressure, he may have streched to bid 3S.

Blasting is also ok.

With kind regards
Marlowe

Agree with most of this, but if you bid 4♥ and he bids 5♣ are you sure it's the ace ? Also if he bids 5♣ with the K and it's doubled, you're probably headed for a poor score

[mike777]

Thought this was a classical 4c bid.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-31, 04:15, said:

Agree with most of this, but if you bid 4♥ and he bids 5♣ are you sure it's the ace ? Also if he bids 5♣ with the K and it's doubled, you're probably headed for a poor score

It’s a good rule that if your first cuebid is beyond game, it should be the ace.

[jillybean]

So specifically the first time either partner cues beyond game level should be a first round control? Ace or void?
I understood if the first cue was above game it promised first round control, but subsequent cues could be 1st or 2nd round. Good to confirm this isn't the case.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2025-May-31, 08:45, said:

So specifically the first time either partner cues beyond game level should be a first round control? Ace or void?
I understood if the first cue was above game it promised first round control, but subsequent cues could be 1st or 2nd round. Good to confirm this isn't the case.

Misread his comment. He said :
1. If the first cuebid you make in any auction, the very first..
2. Happens to be above game level.
3. It shows an Ace.

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-May-31, 08:52, said:

Misread his comment. He said :
1. If the first cuebid you make in any auction, the very first..
2. Happens to be above game level.
3. It shows an Ace.

4♥, the first cue the partnership makes is below game
5♣ , the first cue partner makes is above game. I this specifically an Ace? Why not a void?

This looks like it will turn into another discussion on last train

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-31, 04:03, said:

I decided I didn't want the bottom in 4♠ or 6♠ by pinpointing the club lead so considered this but rejected it.

I would have considered rejecting it (as implicit in my comment) but decided I prefer to pinpoint the already quite probable club lead rather than miss the near top in 4♤+1 or clear top in 7♤=.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-May-31, 11:06, said:

I would have considered rejecting it (as implicit in my comment) but decided I prefer to pinpoint the already quite probable club lead rather than miss the near top in 4♤+1 or clear top in 7♤=.

What I actually did was bid 5♥ exclusion, intending to pass 5♠(0), partner bid 5N(1) and I went back into the tank.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-May-31, 10:37, said:

4♥, the first cue the partnership makes is below game
5♣ , the first cue partner makes is above game. I this specifically an Ace? Why not a void?

This looks like it will turn into another discussion on last train

Not for me, it won’t. I don’t play last train. I understand the theoretical advantages but neither I nor my two regular partners feel that it’s worth adopting.

As for why not a void….there may be auctions where showing a void is a good idea and one hasn’t yet had a chance to show shortness. This auction is, maybe, one….but it’s hard to construct a hand for responder where he has a void in clubs. Especially in light of the auction.

More importantly, unless one has very long trumps, the void is likely to be of limited use, and partner will mis-evaluate a holding such as KJxx in the suit.

My approach, which I’m not claiming is standard though it may be in some circles, is that my first cuebid is never a void unless it’s in an opp’s known suit or I’ve previously splintered in a sequence where my splinter was ambiguous as to stiff or void (in some auctions we can show a void splinter immediately but n most we can’t, including when they overcall).

[HardVector]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-May-31, 04:03, said:

I decided I didn't want the bottom in 4♠ or 6♠ by pinpointing the club lead so considered this but rejected it.

If you didn't want to make an informative auction to determine if slam is on, then just bid 6s and don't worry about it. Every intelligent exploration is going to identify the club problem.

[Cyberyeti]

 HardVector, on 2025-May-31, 22:42, said:

If you didn't want to make an informative auction to determine if slam is on, then just bid 6s and don't worry about it. Every intelligent exploration is going to identify the club problem.

5♥ exclusion is what I actually bid as a semi intelligent exploration that wasn't going to cause partner to bid a minor

[pescetom]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-June-01, 01:54, said:

5♥ exclusion is what I actually bid as a semi intelligent exploration that wasn't going to cause partner to bid a minor

I imagine you say only semi-intelligent because it effectively pinpoints clubs (you must have hearts wrapped up and they can't possibly be thinking diamonds)

[Cyberyeti]

 pescetom, on 2025-June-01, 02:12, said:

I imagine you say only semi-intelligent because it effectively pinpoints clubs (you must have hearts wrapped up and they can't possibly be thinking diamonds)

Why not ? nobody's bid diamonds, and the guy on lead with the heart preempt is unlikely to have much in either, so could have a nasty decision

For clarity I bid 1♠-(3♥)-3♠-(P)-5♥-

I said semi intelligent because over the 5N response I got, I had to guess. I could have been wrong, but had decided to pass 5♠ if partner bid it.

[thepossum]

I spent so much time reading this thread, thinking about it, and even trying to build some hands to lead to the auction I haave no idea

Just assume most people are in slam and bid 6 lol

I think I would not think too much and bid 4 diamonds - even tried constructng hands in an Acol bridge engine and struggled to get the auction

I know I am at a lower level but what could happen after 4 diamonds. pArtner has Ace of hearts or clubs or both etc

I could be brave and bid 4 spades

[Cyberyeti]

Partner's hand is Jxxx, Kxxx, 9, A10xx

Opening leader had a horrible decision

What do you lead from void, AQJ10xxx, xxxx, xx ?

He led a diamond and 13 tricks were easy when it went 9-Q-A and they were 4-3 despite the 3-0 trumps

At my club, bidding 6 would have given you all the MPs.