[jillybean]

---

Bid 3, made 6

If you play 3♣ simply competitive, East has a 3♦ (correction 2♦) bid which might get you to game.

[DavidKok]

Bidding after a takeout double is complicated. There are several different styles, and many partnership don't discuss it in great detail. This inevitably results in some accidents, though it's perhaps sufficiently rare that it's not a big cause for concern.

Whether or not 3♣ is just competitive is maybe a nice clash in time: modern competitive bidding emphasises pressure even in some currently-not-competitive situations to prevent profitable balancing actions. Traditionally 3♣ would be strong here, reasoning that North and South had both passed so there's no need to preempt. However, exactly how strong is also debatable - with 14 (very nice) HCP the East hand is not strong enough for a double-then-bid. So what are the ranges here?

In my opinion West underbid, and should have bid 1NT or 3♣ the first round. As a fun exercise, could you list the meaning of all of West's options on the first round from pass through 4♠, for example? It's a lot of work, but I think it helps understand the bidding after such a takeout double. This is an exercise I do(/did) frequently when learning bidding systems and gadgets, and it helps to illustrate system gaps, reinforce priorities and locate uncomfortable options.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

West was playing dead man.

East did bid what he had, yes he has max., but he needs to cater for West bein broke.

West has a inv. raise, he should have bid 3C instead of 2C, but ok you downgrade the
diamond holding and maybe you are too weak to make the 3C call, ..., after 3C he should
show, that he is not dead wood on the river.
And he can bid 3NT, the X showed length (aka stopper in the majors), he has the diamond
stopper.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[JeffMorrow]

This is definitely a non-expert’s reply, and so may be imapprpriate. But, as at best an intermediate player, maybe my viewpoint will be helpful to others at my skill level.

In general, I have an arbitrary cutoff for cheapest possible response to partner’s takeout X. Under 8 points, I make the cheapest possible response. From 8 points up, I consider doing something more positive.

On the given hand, I have 10 points by counting 1 point for the fifth club. 3 of those points, however, should be discounted because they sit under the diamond bidder, and the hand has only 1.5 quick tricks so hcps are slightly overvalued anyway. Thus, I don’t know whether this hand is really worth 8 points given the bidding.

On the other hand, partner has promised either a strong hand or support for the unbid suits. Even if partner has only 3 clubs, we have an 8-card fit. What does the losing trick count say? I would count 8 losers (discounting the queen of diamonds). However, partner is very unlikely to have more than 2 diamonds so I can ruff away one of the diamond losers. I end up counting 7 losers. That is an opening hand. So, a simple raise to 2♣ is definitely too weak. 3♣ seems the obvious bid, but the QJxx in diamonds make it look as though we should have me as declarer if we play in no trump. The problem for me (at my level) with bidding either 1N or 2N is I have not discussed with either of my regular partners what those bids would mean in this sequence. (I suppose there is an argument for 3N despite the singleton ♥, but that risks getting too high.) So, I’d go with three clubs at the table. That is the non-expert viewpoint.

[P_Marlowe]

JeffMorrow, on 2025-August-19, 10:23, said:

<snip>
The problem for me (at my level) with bidding either 1N or 2N is I have not discussed with either of my regular partners what those bids would mean in this sequence. (I suppose there is an argument for 3N despite the singleton ♥, but that risks getting too high.) So, I’d go with three clubs at the table. That is the non-expert viewpoint.

1NT showes live, but below inv. strength, and stopper in their suit.
What "showes live" means is up for debate, I think it start at 6, but most peoble req. 8+,
capping it of at 10, again how those points are count is again a different topic.
2NT showes inv. strength starting from 10, going to 12, denying 4 card majors that could have
bid, 3NT showes opening values.

In this regard. 3NT is too much, the heart singleton means they have a 8 card fit in hearts,
they may not attack it, but given that you are on the lower end of the range for the bid, wait
until p says, he was serious at the moment he made the T/O.

With regards to your strengh: Dont hesitat to make your comment, sometimes stronger player forget
to state obv. things, which may or may not be as obv., sometimes lower strength player can articulate
certain points in a cleaner way.

[WasWinM]

I don’t mind the initial 2C response as the diamond values look suspect but after the doubler raises you hold maximum values for the action thus far taken and should be shot for passing, or at least had your winky swatted. I’d bid 3NT over 3C.

[JeffMorrow]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-August-19, 10:42, said:

1NT showes live, but below inv. strength, and stopper in their suit.
What "showes live" means is up for debate, I think it start at 6, but most peoble req. 8+,
capping it of at 10, again how those points are count is again a different topic.
2NT showes inv. strength starting from 10, going to 12, denying 4 card majors that could have
bid, 3NT showes opening values.

Thank you for the guidance on the meaning of the bids of 1N and 2N in this situation. They are sort of intuitive. Given that, I think the bidding choices boil down to 1NT or 3C. But getting to that choice is an issue of evaluating West’s hand given the bidding.

[bluenikki]

jillybean, on 2025-August-19, 08:56, said:

---

Bid 3, made 6

If you play 3♣ simply competitive, East has a 3♦ bid which might get you to game.

In the valuation of Kaplan's 1965 "Competitive bidding," West's hand is worth 6 for the club honors, 1 for the fifth club, three for the heart singleton, and maybe 1 for the diamond honors. (Not from position, but for probable duplication facing East's presumed shortness.) So it's a tip-toppy 3♣ advance.

[bluenikki]

In the valuation of Kaplan's 1965 "Competitive bidding," West's hand is worth 6 for the club honors, 1 for the fifth club, three for the heart singleton, and maybe 1 for the diamond honors. (Not from position, but for probable duplication facing East's presumed shortness.) So it's a tip-toppy 3♣ advance.

Meanwhile, East has 18, so a single raise. Advancer has the sole responsibility of competing for the partscore, so does all the partnership's overbidding. Doubler bids again only to try for game.

Kaplan's doubling guideline has never let me down.

[mikeh]

2C is a big underbid (edited to correct fat thumb effect)

I truly detest 1N as an alternative. It’s a mastermind bid

Bidding 1N basically rules out finding clubs while bidding your hand via 3C doesn’t rule out 3N.

Once in a long while partner may have doubled with 4=4=3=2 shape. It’s simply too risky to pass 1D with, say, AKxx AJxx xxx Jx. Your side may be frozen out so most good players would at least consider a double. For me it would be automatic

But that’s one possibility and it’s far more likely….I’d say 90% or better…that he had 3+ clubs

Over the flawed 2C bid, east has to fear something like 4432 with short majors and a weak hand. No way should he be catering to the actual hand. In constructive bidding, never make a call in the hope that partner misbid. No good comes of that. Even if you guessed correctly, all you’re doing is preventing partner from understanding that his 2C bid was wrong. Even if he claims he understands, subconsciously he will think it didn’t matter. And if you guessed wrong and reach a silly contract, you’ve damaged partnership trust because you’ve told partner that you don’t trust him or her.

[jillybean]

FYP?

I don't know of the treatment where 1nt shows East's hand.
I'm bidding 3C here simply competitive, (I am EAST )although its close. I'll cue bid with a better hand but should I not be making any noise after an auction (1X) X (P) minimum bid (P) ? Where are the points?
HOw many souths would wait in the weeds?, or perhaps how many good players sitting south would wait in the weeds? (none)

DavidKok, on 2025-August-19, 09:05, said:

As a fun exercise, could you list the meaning of all of West's options on the first round from pass through 4♠, for example? It's a lot of work, but I think it helps understand the bidding after such a takeout double.

I want to and need to do this, but it's time consuming and partners just don't have that time.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2025-August-19, 14:12, said:

FYP?

Edited to correct fat thumb issue

[blackshoe]

At intermediate level, IMO, the idea is not to worry about South "waiting in the weeds". Just bid your hand. I would bid 3♣.

[mw64ahw]

Should be straightforward in a standard approach
X shows an opening hand and 3+ in the unbid suits or a strong hand with a long suit
3♣ West has 5+ and enough for a limit raise

Now 5.5 mod. losers opposite a min. expected 8.5 and controls in the other suits suggests you should be exploring game.

[jillybean]

blackshoe, on 2025-August-19, 14:35, said:

At intermediate level, IMO, the idea is not to worry about South "waiting in the weeds". Just bid your hand. I would bid 3♣.

Im not sure if you are saying <intermediate players don’t wait in the weeds, don’t worry until I’m playing flight A?

I think it’s the opposite scenario, fltA players bid their hands.

[P_Marlowe]

jillybean, on 2025-August-19, 14:12, said:

<snip>
I'm bidding 3C here simply competitive, (I am EAST )although its close. I'll cue bid with a better hand but should I not be making any noise after an auction (1X) X (P) minimum bid (P) ? Where are the points?
<snip>

3C is not competitive, if you dont have anything, you should not bid. 3C showes a reasonable hand.
In this regard, the hand is min for the 3C raise.

Where are the points? This is a futile question. Ones own hand does not get stronger / weaker, if the
oppoenents bid weak / strong.

[jillybean]

P_Marlowe, on 2025-August-20, 04:59, said:

3C is not competitive, if you dont have anything, you should not bid. 3C showes a reasonable hand.
In this regard, the hand is min for the 3C raise.

Where are the points? This is a futile question. Ones own hand does not get stronger / weaker, if the
oppoenents bid weak / strong.

Yes, thx. Our 3♣ "competitive" here is not good.

Is it really futile to ask where the points are?
My RHO has opened , I doubled, partner made a minimum response and it came back to me? It makes no sense

I accept on this auction that West underbid his hand. Strange things happen at the table. hopefully more often with the opps.
(edit)

[Cyberyeti]

Only 2 options, 1N or 3♣ for me as W, way too much for 2♣.

[jillybean]

What does 1nt show? please don't say this hand

[Cyberyeti]

jillybean, on 2025-August-20, 09:47, said:

What does 1nt show? please don't say this hand

8-11 ish, diamond stop, no 4M, not enough or good enough diamonds to pass