[Cyberyeti]

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2♦ was simple negative for us with no 2♥ double negative available, but I guess you make the same bid if it's waiting, now what ?

[AL78]

2NT.

[Cyberyeti]

AL78, on 2025-November-13, 15:40, said:

2NT.

Showing what ?

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-13, 14:09, said:

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2♦ was simple negative for us with no 2♥ double negative available, but I guess you make the same bid if it's waiting

No, for us 2♥ is a red flag denying a King or Ace.
Now everything is natural and NF.

Nor would I describe 2♠ after 2♦ as "natural": for us it promises 5+ cards and excludes anything more or less balanced except a 6322.
Can yours be 4 cards, or 5 cards balanced?

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-November-13, 16:10, said:

No, for us 2♥ is a red flag denying a King or Ace.
Now everything is natural and NF, 2NT here.

So you can have a 12 count as long as it's no ace or king ?

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-13, 16:17, said:

So you can have a 12 count as long as it's no ace or king ?

Yup. Never happened or even went close. And if opener is more or less balanced his NT bid is still sufficiently precise to allow you to make a quantitative judgement.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-November-13, 16:31, said:

Yup. Never happened or even went close. And if opener is more or less balanced his NT bid is still sufficiently precise to allow you to make a quantitative judgement.

Is 3♠ forcing over 2N, is 2♠ even forcing over the 2♥ ?

[DavidKok]

Here are my preferred agreements regarding a strong 2♣ opening:

• No weak options in 2♣.
  
• 2♦ waiting, higher responses show 5+M or 6+m with at least 2/3 or 3/5 honours. This is almost certainly suboptimal, but at least for now I want to keep the frequency of 2♦ high.
  
• 2♣ is GF or 22-23 balanced. The only not-GF sequence is 2♣-2♦; 2NT-P. Every other action establishes a game force. If you are worried about not making game, open at the 1-level.
  
• No second negative. Responder bids shape.
  
• I like game-ordered Birthright, but you can play without and be fine.

With these rules 2♠ is GF and responder has a natural 2NT bid, showing a (semi)balanced hand with at most 2 spades.

[pescetom]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-13, 16:42, said:

Is 3♠ forcing over 2N, is 2♠ even forcing over the 2♥ ?

After the 2♥ Red Flag, all is natural and NF.
Sounds something like Acol?
Probably far from optimal at IMPs, but easy to agree and play and quite often better than what the field is doing with the same board.

[mikeh]

In my main partnership we recently dropped 2H denying an ace or king. We had had several 24-26 balanced hands, and 2C 2H 2N shows 22-23, so one has to jump to 3N which has huge problems. Not only can responder not safely transfer with a 5 card major, but it’s not even safe to do so with ac6 card suit…and kiss stayman goodbye. 3N could be around 25 hcp, balanced, but definitely doesn’t promise a major and of course what else would one bid with A Kx Axx AKQJxxx?

As for our structure, we use 2D waiting on probably more than 90% of the hands. It doesn’t deny something like AQxxx in a suit…not if it is 2 suited or has around 10+ hcp. With 2 suits, we stay out of opener’s way….his most common rebid is 2N or a birthright scenario and we have good methofdscover big notrump hands.

2S is so me 4441 with 2+ controls, and relays available thereafter. 2N is a solid 6 card suit, 3N is a solid 7 card suit (yes, it’s rare but I’ve twice seen 2C 3N 7N and once 7 of responder’s suit with opener being void! Hence no way to responder’s hand in 7N.

3C through 3S shows a one loser 6 card suit with nothing outside…protects opener’s holding.

Oh, and 2C 2D 2S is forcing. The game is too tough not to be able to force with something like AKJxxx x AKQxx A

And jumping to 3S is idiotic…picture xx Axx Jxxx xxxx.

[akwoo]

My preference is Kokish with full switch, cheapest 3 level bid 2nd negative.

2C-2D-2S-3C is 2nd negative; we're forced to 3S but not beyond.

2C-2D-2H-2S-3C shows a heart one-suiter, after which 3D is 2nd negative; we're only forced to 3H.

2C-2D-2N, 2C-2D-2H-2S-2N, 2C-2D-2H-2N (both minors 0-2), and 2C-2D-2H-3m (one minor 0-2) are the only other non game-forcing starts.

[thepossum]

3 clubs perhaps showing a very ordinary hand

Then if opener has enough they can decide on where to go next

[shyams]

I too play 3♣ as the ordinary / poor hand that conveys unsuitability for slam. A sort-of second negative but we are anyways in a GF sequence.

In an old partnership, we had an agreement that 2C-2D; 2M-3C is a terrible hand and that a further sub-game bid by opener is passable (2C-2D; 2M-3C; 3M-pass) but we later realised that it was not necessary and also did not work as well as we thought (incl. risk of UI to partner). So we adopted the ("standard" treatment of) cheapest minor to convey a poor hand.

[Tramticket]

Our methods after 2♣ are the traditional Acol methods (except that we have added Kokish). The 2♣ opening is forcing to game (except the specific sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT) and 2♣-2♦ is a negative denying an ace and a king (or other 8+ HCP hands).

After 2♣-2♦-2♠, 2NT is a second negative (but still forcing to game). The choice here is to either bid 3♣ natural or 2NT. The problem with 3♣ is that the suit quality is poor. I am a little stronger than usual for 2NT, but with no aces or kings, it seems to be the practical bid.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2025-November-14, 02:33, said:

Our methods after 2♣ are the traditional Acol methods (except that we have added Kokish). The 2♣ opening is forcing to game (except the specific sequence 2♣-2♦-2NT) and 2♣-2♦ is a negative denying an ace and a king (or other 8+ HCP hands).

After 2♣-2♦-2♠, 2NT is a second negative (but still forcing to game). The choice here is to either bid 3♣ natural or 2NT. The problem with 3♣ is that the suit quality is poor. I am a little stronger than usual for 2NT, but with no aces or kings, it seems to be the practical bid.

This is almost exactly what we play, except 2N is clubs and 3♣ 2nd neg

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2025-November-13, 16:50, said:

After the 2♥ Red Flag, all is natural and NF.
Sounds something like Acol?
Probably far from optimal at IMPs, but easy to agree and play and quite often better than what the field is doing with the same board.

So what do you do with a 5314 or 5215 26 count or something like KJ5432, AKQ, A, AKJ ?

[mw64ahw]

Playing reverse (20-21) 'birthright' I maintain 3♣ as a 2nd negative/♣ from a traditional approach (preferring partner to play NT). I'm not looking to stop in 3♠ here, as would be OK with 3N/4♠; slight preference for the former. Continuations after 3♣ would be:
3♦ either minor, 3♥ asks.
3♥ 4♥, my 55xx goes via 2N (♣ preempt or strong 5+♣4+♦ or 55xx)
3♠ 6♠ & passable
3N 5044
4♠ to play

[Cyberyeti]

OK, so next step (matchpoints)

If 2♠ is not GF - you will get 2♣-2♦/♥-3♠

If 2♠ is GF - 2♣-2♦-2♠-2N/3♣-3♠

now what ?

[Tramticket]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-November-14, 06:36, said:

If 2♠ is GF - 2♣-2♦-2♠-2N-3♠

now what ?

Yes, I'm a little uneasy that I have shown as bust, whereas I actually have a few scattered values. But nevertheless I have nothing to cue bid, so raise to 4♠.

Note that the sequence 2♣-2♦-3♠ would imply a solid spade suit, so I am expecting partner to have a trump loser and they would therefore need to have no losers outside trumps to make slam a realistic option.

[Cyberyeti]

Tramticket, on 2025-November-14, 06:56, said:

Yes, I'm a little uneasy that I have shown as bust, whereas I actually have a few scattered values. But nevertheless I have nothing to cue bid, so raise to 4♠.

Note that the sequence 2♣-2♦-3♠ would imply a solid spade suit, so I am expecting partner to have a trump loser and they would therefore need to have no losers outside trumps to make slam a realistic option.

How solid is solid ? (same for us)