[adhoc3]

Non vs Vul

when you have ♥Q ♥Qx ♦QJxxx ♣QJTxx, and the bidding goes:

1♠  2♥(your pd)  4♠  ??

Now what's your choice?

[pmacfar]

4NT - the high level version of Unusual NT. Tell partner we don't have a good enough fit with his ♥s and you don't see stopping their 4♠ contract, but we should have a better fit in one of the minors and that he needs to pick it. It will also help to push the opponents to the 5 level. And with favorable vulnerability, down 2 doubled is better than the 4♠ vulnerable score.

Phil

[Al_U_Card]

uhhh, gun, pills or a rope? (=dbl,pass or a 4NT) name your poison.... But if pard should dbl to reopen, then 4NT as pick a minor.

[SoTired]

let's see... partner made a 2-level overcall and i have 10 all in quacks. They may not make 4S. Even if they do, 5m may get killed if partner has a mediocre overcall. I'll defend on this hand.

[mike777]

Double

Far from clear but here is my best guess:
FTL=13-3-1=9 tricks for the opp.
13=total tricks, minus 3= estimated combined two shortest suits, minus one=assume 18 working hcp.

FTL=13-3-0 =10 tricks for us.
13=total tricks, minus 3 =combined two shortest suits, minus zero=assume 19 working hcp.

btw while double will often end the auction partner may bid again with very unusual hand.
btw2, if they do not make doubled contracts sometimes, I am not doubling enough .

[inquiry]

Pass.... although I have a sneaking admiration for the I know best bid of 4NT. My flavor of this I know best bid is DOUBLE (all, well almost all, doubles are for takeout until fit is found).... and 4NT.... both showing the other two suiters.. 4NT being, I don't want to accidently defend. Double being take me out, unless you are loaded on defense and no fit for minor.

[Al_U_Card]

Jlall, on Sep 16 2005, 02:00 PM, said:

Pass. This hand to me is garbage without a heart fit, not what I usually bid to the 5 level on. I can contribute 0 tricks on defense, and few on offense.

100% spot on. If pard has the hand he needs to make 5 of a minor (or H for that matter) a viable option, he will act.

ps There is a reason why that first Queen has a black heart....lol

[mike777]

inquiry, on Sep 16 2005, 02:06 PM, said:

Pass.... although I have a sneaking admiration for the I know best bid of 4NT. My flavor of this I know best bid is DOUBLE (all, well almost all, doubles are for takeout until fit is found).... and 4NT.... both showing the other two suiters.. 4NT being, I don't want to accidently defend. Double being take me out, unless you are loaded on defense and no fit for minor.

Not sure what you mean by this but if double means:
pass if we are beating this or bid if we are making or have a good sacrifice then double seems to be winning bid for the postmortem in the bar .

[inquiry]

mike777, on Sep 16 2005, 03:15 PM, said:

inquiry, on Sep 16 2005, 02:06 PM, said:

Pass.... although I have a sneaking admiration for the I know best bid of 4NT. My flavor of this I know best bid is DOUBLE (all, well almost all, doubles are for takeout until fit is found).... and 4NT.... both showing the other two suiters.. 4NT being, I don't want to accidently defend. Double being take me out, unless you are loaded on defense and no fit for minor.

Not sure what you mean by this but if double means:
pass if we are beating this or bid if we are making or have a good sacrifice then double seems to be winning bid for the postmortem in the bar .

No when I double, without suit agreement, it never means.. pass partner.. it is for takeout.... Partner passes at his own risk.... but remember my BID with this hand was PASS .. .

[Al_U_Card]

Relative to another thread, who is the first hand to feel "pressure" here? If pard bids to reopen, np, but if he dbls?

[mikeh]

Pass... frankly, this is a non-problem. Bidding is a mastermind decision.

BTW how would you bid if you held Axx Kxxx KQJxx x after a similar start?

And the hands were


       x
       AQJxxx
       Axx
       xxx
 KQxxx     Jxxx
 xx           x
 xx          xxx
 AQxx      KJxxx

Would 4N be two suited takeout or keycard?

[Al_U_Card]

Bummer. At that lofty position I might just opt for 5H instead (6 losers etc.) Then no prob with 4NT either way

[han]

Pass.

[mikeh]

Al_U_Card, on Sep 16 2005, 02:41 PM, said:

Bummer.  At that lofty position I might just opt for 5H instead (6 losers etc.) Then no prob with 4NT either way 

I must have missed something

You hold Axx of ♠ and the opps have opened 1♠ and raised to 4♠ preemptively and we are counting this holding as 2 losers?

And we hold Kxxx in a suit in which our partner has made a vulnerable 2/1 overcall, and this is also 2 losers?

I would take the example hand I gave (Axx Kxxx KQJxx x) as a 2 or 3 loser hand.

And I am morally certain that had I posted this as a problem after (1♠) 2♥ (4♠) ? I would have seen a lot of 4N answers, many of which would be saying 'wtp?'

[Al_U_Card]

Sorry Mike, the question related to 4NT as blackwood or whatever by advancer not by overcaller. I too think that the hand grows tremendously despite the Spade ace not adding to pard's holding (but certainly covering his stiff or likely void on that sequence).

[mike777]

mikeh, on Sep 16 2005, 02:35 PM, said:

Pass... frankly, this is a non-problem. Bidding is a mastermind decision.

BTW how would you bid if you held Axx Kxxx KQJxx x after a similar start?

And the hands were


       x
       AQJxxx
       Axx
       xxx
 KQxxx     Jxxx
 xx           x
 xx          xxx
 AQxx      KJxxx

Would 4N be two suited takeout or keycard?

Must admit I would have just blasted to 6h with that example hand.
13-2+1
13 total tricks, estimated minus 2=combined 2 shortest suits, plus one=estimated 24 working hcp.

Feel much more comfortable with my guess on this one then my choice over 4s on originial post:).

[mikeh]

I agree that 4N is likely to be more effectively played as takeout. I was trying to point out that it is far from clear that it HAS to be takeout. We often seem to get postings that assume that the meaning of a particular bid coincides with the given hand. Thus so far no-one seemed to doubt that 4N was takeout, because, with this hand, it could be nothing else. We have seen from many, many posts, that there are often strong disagreements over sequences that appear (albeit from different perspectives) to be 'standard'. No one seemed to have picked up on this one (or chose not to comment, because 4N is so clearly takeout?)

I like your solution: 4N (ostensibly minors) followed by 5♥ to show a strong 5♥ bid. You are still probably missing slam on the hand I gave, but at least you have made a try.