[pilun]

Trial bid questions

The following questions arise from a new text for Open players. Expert help would be appreciated to ensure that the material is sound. Standard 5-card major bidding is assumed. After minor agreement, stopper showing is assumed. After major agreement, long or help suit tries are assumed.

1. do you agree that the term “trial bid” can apply to stopper-showing after a minor suit, as well as to a long/help suit try after 2-level agreement in a major?

2. after minor agreement, should a new suit be stopper showing or stopper asking? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).

3. after major agreement (at the 2-level), should a new suit be a short suit try; or a long or help suit try or some vague mix of the two; or...? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).

4. assuming a long/help suit try, how would you describe the requirements for bidding it, and also the guidelines for accepting the game try?

5. After 1H/S : (x) : 2NT Truscott (P), would a new suit e.g. 3C or 3D be a trial bid along the same lines?

6. after opening 1C and hearing partner make a limit (not inverted) raise to 3C, what does opener do with:

♠AJT
♥43
♦A5
♣AJT932

7. you opened 1C, raised by pard to 2C (6-10 TP). Next player doubles; what do you call?
♠64
♥AJT2
♥JT
♣AK432

8. You open 1H, raised by pard to 2H (6-10). Next player bids 3C; your call?
♠A432
♥AKQJ2
♦5
♣J32

9. Where the opponents have not bid over a 2-level raise, e.g. 1H : 2H uncontested or 1H (Dble) 2H (Pass), is a re-raise e.g. 3H invitational or pre-emptive?

10. On a different tack: pinning down different possible rules as to when double is takeout. What problems if any do you see with the following as a possible “standard” to teach to club players?
* negative doubles in reply to any 1-opening (i.e. 1-suit OR 1NT)
* responsive doubles (by the partner of the interposer) only if opps bid and raised the suit
* after both members of our partnership have called (exc pass), doubles are penalties; any exceptions to this must be by agreement

11. What sort of hand should you have for a trial in partner’s suit e.g. in an uncontested auction 1D : 1H, 2H : 3D. Is this forcing? What should you have in diamonds? Etc

12. do normal principles apply for a trial bid in the enemy suit? E.g. 1D (1H) : 1S (P), 2S (P), now is 3H a trial bid looking for help in hearts? Or ?

[peachy]

pilun, on Aug 22 2008, 09:09 PM, said:

Trial bid questions

The following questions arise from a new text for Open players. Expert help would be appreciated to ensure that the material is sound. Standard 5-card major bidding is assumed. After minor agreement, stopper showing is assumed. After major agreement, long or help suit tries are assumed.

1. do you agree that the term “trial bid” can apply to stopper-showing after a minor suit, as well as to a long/help suit try after 2-level agreement in a major?

2. after minor agreement, should a new suit be stopper showing or stopper asking? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).

3. after major agreement (at the 2-level), should a new suit be a short suit try; or a long or help suit try or some vague mix of the two; or...? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).

4. assuming a long/help suit try, how would you describe the requirements for bidding it, and also the guidelines for accepting the game try?

5. After 1H/S : (x) : 2NT Truscott (P), would a new suit e.g. 3C or 3D be a trial bid along the same lines?

6. after opening 1C and hearing partner make a limit (not inverted) raise to 3C, what does opener do with:

♠AJT
♥43
♦A5
♣AJT932

7. you opened 1C, raised by pard to 2C (6-10 TP). Next player doubles; what do you call?
♠64
♥AJT2
♥JT
♣AK432

8. You open 1H, raised by pard to 2H (6-10). Next player bids 3C; your call?
♠A432
♥AKQJ2
♦5
♣J32

9. Where the opponents have not bid over a 2-level raise, e.g. 1H : 2H uncontested or 1H (Dble) 2H (Pass), is a re-raise e.g. 3H invitational or pre-emptive?

10. On a different tack: pinning down different possible rules as to when double is takeout. What problems if any do you see with the following as a possible “standard” to teach to club players?
* negative doubles in reply to any 1-opening (i.e. 1-suit OR 1NT)
* responsive doubles (by the partner of the interposer) only if opps bid and raised the suit
* after both members of our partnership have called (exc pass), doubles are penalties; any exceptions to this must be by agreement

11. What sort of hand should you have for a trial in partner’s suit e.g. in an uncontested auction 1D : 1H, 2H : 3D. Is this forcing? What should you have in diamonds? Etc

12. do normal principles apply for a trial bid in the enemy suit? E.g. 1D (1H) : 1S (P), 2S (P), now is 3H a trial bid looking for help in hearts? Or ?

I am probably nor qualified to say what majority plays, nor what "standard" is. If you mean Standardish American or SAYCish, I could opine that standard is definitely Help Suit Game Try = HSGT.

However, I have one observation that I would like to consider:

You should not use the terms "long suit try" and "help suit game try" interchangeably or connected together because they are not the same. They are two different game tries. In effect there are basically three types of game tries by opener:
- short suit
- natural = long suit
- help suit

Long suit try is "natural", showing either the suit or at least a bulky 3-card fragment like KQx. Responder will upgrade length and all honors, whether long or short.

Help suit try is "not natural" and typically showing like Jxx or even xxx. Responder will upgrade Ax, Axx, Kx, xx, x, void [all of which help to stop three quick losers in the suit]

Short suit can be played in different ways, either opener showing a shortness or asking for one, or asking for specific one, plus there are some two-way trial bids also.

Hope this helps.

[dake50]

I'm with you on questioning what is definitive best in some arguable sense --not ME and X-famous like this. Who has sims/prob calcs to make those types of gains-when, loses-when, trades-what sensible demonstrations?

[BillHiggin]

In my youth, I played a fair amount of rubber bridge for money (a brutal but effective way to learn bridge). There, the primary game try was: "bid GAME, TRY to make it". At IMP scoring (or rubber bridge), this is still not a horrible approach.

As for game tries after non-inverted jump raise of a minor, direct efforts to changing that aproach rather than considering what to do after the ugly bid.

[gnasher]

[quote name='pilun' date='Aug 23 2008, 03:09 AM']1. do you agree that the term “trial bid” can apply to stopper-showing after a minor suit, as well as to a long/help suit try after 2-level agreement in a major?[/quote]
No - they're completely different. A "trial bid" is used to investigate the partnership's combined strength and fit, in order to determine whether we have enough to make game. A stopper-showing bid says that we do have enough strength to make game, and is used to find out whether we have an unstopped suit.

[quote]2. after minor agreement, should a new suit be stopper showing or stopper asking? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).[/quote]
Showing a stop is both standard and majority practice. Asking might be better in some auctions, but I've never heard of anyone playing it.

[quote]3. after major agreement (at the 2-level), should a new suit be a short suit try; or a long or help suit try or some vague mix of the two; or...? (e.g. what is best practice, majority practice, “standard” practice).[/quote]
I think that standard is long-suit, but help-suit may be standard in some places; best is probably Romex, allowing both long-suit and short-suit tries.

I think that help-suit tries are a bad idea, because:
- They only work well when you have xxx in a side suit, but this doesn't occur very often.
- When you don't have a weak side suit, pretending to have one doesn't usually work out well (whereas having to invent a long suit game try isn't usually so bad).
- They tell the opponents what to lead (whereas a long suit try only tells them what not to lead).

[quote]4. assuming a long/help suit try, how would you describe the requirements for bidding it, and also the guidelines for accepting the game try?
[/quote]
As Peachy says, they're two different bids, with different requirements both for bidding and for accepting. A long-suit try shows length and strength in the suit. A help-suit try shows small cards in the suit.

Opposite any game try, you accept with a maximum, a well fitting medium, or a very well fitting minimum.

[quote]5. After 1H/S : (x) : 2NT Truscott (P), would a new suit e.g. 3C or 3D be a trial bid along the same lines?[/quote]
Yes.

[quote]6. after opening 1C and hearing partner make a limit (not inverted) raise to 3C, what does opener do with:

[sp]AJT
[he]43
[di]A5
[cl]AJT932[/quote]
3[di]

[quote]7. you opened 1C, raised by pard to 2C (6-10 TP). Next player doubles; what do you call?
[sp]64
[he]AJT2
[he]JT
[cl]AK432[/quote]
3[cl]. 2[he] wouldn't promise the same strength as normal, but on this hand it's more likely to help them than us.

[quote]8. You open 1H, raised by pard to 2H (6-10). Next player bids 3C; your call?
[sp]A432
[he]AKQJ2
[di]5
[cl]J32
[/quote]
3[he]. If I were worth a game try, I'd bid 3[di], which is an artificial game try because we don't have any space.

[quote]9. Where the opponents have not bid over a 2-level raise, e.g. 1H : 2H uncontested or 1H (Dble) 2H (Pass), is a re-raise e.g. 3H invitational or pre-emptive?[/quote]
I think it's normal, though not necessarily best, to play the first one as invitational. The second should definitely be preemptive, because the auction is still live.

[quote]10. On a different tack: pinning down different possible rules as to when double is takeout. What problems if any do you see with the following as a possible “standard” to teach to club players?
* negative doubles in reply to any 1-opening (i.e. 1-suit OR 1NT)
* responsive doubles (by the partner of the interposer) only if opps bid and raised the suit
* after both members of our partnership have called (exc pass), doubles are penalties; any exceptions to this must be by agreement[/quote]
Sounds OK.

[quote]11. What sort of hand should you have for a trial in partner’s suit e.g. in an uncontested auction 1D : 1H, 2H : 3D. Is this forcing? What should you have in diamonds? Etc[/quote]
I feel strongly that it should be an invitational 4-4. Without this agreement, responder has to make his game try in notrumps, risking playing 2NT with 11 opposite 11 and a 9-card diamond fit.

[quote]12. do normal principles apply for a trial bid in the enemy suit? E.g. 1D (1H) : 1S (P), 2S (P), now is 3H a trial bid looking for help in hearts? Or ?[/quote]
No, it's just an artificial invitation.