[Ant590]

Hello all,

The following question assumes the opponents are playing a weak NT, but I'm fairly sure the questions are also valid wherever our side play a penalty double of their 1NT.

Basically, since the year dot I have played the following style:
(1NT) - dbl - (pass) -
o Weak hands remove the double. This means pass shows enough points for the balance (like 5+ or so), and penalty passes etc are on if they run.

This evening, I learnt that - at least in my part of the world - this is uncommon and considered inferior to the following:
o Only weak hands with long (6+) suits remove the double. All balanced hands pass.

This style is completely alien to me, but I can see its merits. In the first style, you've just spoiled doubler's party if he has a 21 count and you remove to a 4-card misfitting hand. However, it seems to me the second style means it is more difficult to double them if/when they run. It seems that a minimum double (say 16) is going to double their suit on Hxxx, but how does advancer know when to pull with weak hands and <2 trumps.

As you can see, I've gotten myself quite confused in an area of bidding that I thought I knew how experts played - help!

[helene_t]

If I have a 2-count it is unlikely that we can beat 1NT so I will pull if I can. But I do need a 5-card suit. Otherwise there is no reason to think that declaring (doubled, in a 4-2 or even 4-1 fit maybe) is less of a disaster than defending 1NTx. And on a good day, opener runs, or p can take 7 defensive tricks on his own.

Some play 2♣ as response to the dbl as natural or scrambling. Not sure if I like it. I am ok playing it if p insists.

[Mbodell]

I like the second way. I don't worry that much about when they run hitting them, you can agree you are in a force up to some level and/or you can just play take out doubles or penalty doubles and still get them a bunch.

It depends a little on your other systems and how sound partner needs to be to hit them. When playing the preferred style it does mean that you can't just make a penalty double on top of their range (I.e., don't just double with flat 14 or 15 point hands opposite 12-14). Overall that seems like a small loss to me.

As someone who plays both mini and weak nt a lot, against a mix of fields, I can tell you that the better players pass the double much more often than the weaker players, and I love when they run from the double as it is very often quite wrong and turns -500 or -800 into -140 or the like.

[TylerE]

Only time I'd consider pulling is if it's R/W and I think we can make 3N. Otherwise I trust partner. I also don't expect my partner to X 1N on Kxx Kxx AKxx Kxx. The X *must* contain the expectation of tricks to beat 1N. Any other style is IMO unplayable. Pulling when very weak can be a great way to bypass your only way to win the board. But again, this is predicated on the X being a *penalty* double, and not "equal values" or some tripe like that.

[dake50]

Can direct seat trust passout to reopen?
That means an immediate penalty double has a
suit to lead and entries to cash it.
Easy to pass that with flat 0-6.
Of course, reopener must cater to 16-19 bal in direct seat
that doesn't penalty double, and reopen double with 5+.
Scramble when stepped into it.

[peachy]

Many partnerships just call the Dbl of 1NT "Penalty" although their actual agreement is "Equal or better HCP" - the advancer's choices are different opposite "Penalty" than opposite "Equal or better HCP". Opposite PENALTY, all balanced hands pass, weak or not. Opposite the other kind of Double, it is a guessing game to start with.

[jmcw]

I play this double as penalty, some partners prefer it to show a hand of equivelant or better, which I do not care for.

Playing as penalty I would pass all balanced hands regardless of strength. With shape, I have the option to pull (system on) when game values are likely to produce a better result. Pulling when you think you side might make 3NT is as close to nuts as I can imagine

[MickyB]

TylerE, on 2011-July-27, 18:23, said:

Only time I'd consider pulling is if it's R/W and I think we can make 3N. Otherwise I trust partner. I also don't expect my partner to X 1N on Kxx Kxx AKxx Kxx. The X *must* contain the expectation of tricks to beat 1N. Any other style is IMO unplayable. Pulling when very weak can be a great way to bypass your only way to win the board. But again, this is predicated on the X being a *penalty* double, and not "equal values" or some tripe like that.

Downvote

[MickyB]

I've always played pulling as showing a five-card suit. At favourable, it would be reasonable to play 2C as a natural or scramble, as 1N X up two is much worse than 2C off five; but otherwise, running on a hand with no five-card suit removes the chance of us obtaining a very good result on the board, without decreasing the chance of a bad result.

If 1N-X-P is "to play", then why are you worrying about them running? People sometimes do run here, but it shouldn't be frequent.

If 1N-X-P forces a redouble, then you can pass and pull on the next round, which implies you have another place to play.

Either way, I suggest playing that pass is forcing over 2m but not higher.

[Ant590]

Thanks everyone.

From the responses here it does seem like I've had the minority view for a long time, I should probably change, and discuss more with my partners.

Just for your interest, here are the two hands which provoked the discussion:

Both IMPs
Because of my (poor) - all weak hand must act - style, I bid 2♣ intending to redouble later

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Here, the rdbl might muddy the water a little?

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Cheers,
Ant.

[quiddity]

If these examples demonstrate anything, it is that any agreement is better than no agreement at all. I think your "poor" style will usually work just fine if partner is on the same page.

[MickyB]

Pard's 2NT on the first hand is just bonkers, and 3NT on the second isn't much better.

1N-X-XX also needs discussion, both for natural and ART redouble.

If the redouble is natural and you run to 2C without clubs, oppo are more likely to double you and give you another shot. On the other hand, it would seem reasonable to play pass there as neutral, expecting partner to run unless he has a hand that even TylerE would have doubled with.

If the redouble is some sort of scramble, direct bids show both weakness and length - it cannot be right to be taking another action here on a balanced nothing. This means pard can't rely on you having values when he makes a penalty double [or penalty pass, if you prefer] of 2m, but you are at least protected by the knowledge that oppo didn't stick 1NT X, so you probably have the balance of points anyway.