[sathyab]

You're playing 2/1 with Walsh style rebids in 1♣ - 1♦ sequence. You bid a Major up the line only when unbalanced or have a concentration of values. Bidding 1♠ instead of 1♥ should deny 4♥.

1♣ 1♦

1♠ 2♥(4th suit, GF) (X)

XX ?

[gnasher]

I think it shows a heart stop but suggests that partner play the hand.

[sathyab]

gnasher, on 2011-November-03, 11:29, said:

I think it shows a heart stop but suggests that partner play the hand.

I knew I had missed that choice when I submitted the poll, showing an anti-positional stopper. Add it to the choices. Thanks.

[mikeh]

I think it shows 4=3=1=5 or the like, and Hxx or better in hearts, and suggests that we may have found a playable spot should partner think we can make. It also allows partner to bid notrump with Hx, when playing from his side makes sense.

Obviously Andy's treatment covers many of the same hands, but I think he'd do it on Ax as well as Axx or Kxx, etc.

The way I look at it is that I can't be less than 4=2=2=5 for my rebid of 1♠, and more frequently will hold a red stiff/void. It makes no sense, to me, to use the redouble to show short hearts....we should, imo, be showing our support for diamonds (4=1=3=5) or our extra black suit length (5=6 or 4=6). After all, a bid of 3♦ shows the short hearts, and we can always pass with hands unsuited for xx or bidding our shape.

In the meantime, once partner showed the values to force to game, we expect to make a lot of side-suit tricks and a strong 3=3 may do very well indeed (plus he hasn't denied a 4 card heart suit).

Finally, I am not overly worried about rho's heart suit...he chose not to bid over 1♦ (altho knowing the vulnerability would help assess how strong an inference one can draw from this).

The problem hand for me, which is, I think, Ax in hearts can always make a forcing pass, and get back to notrump from partner's side eventually, when partner has a stopper.

This issue will, I think, be infrequent: a hand/suit strong enough to safely double 2♥ will usually have bid a round earlier.....so I do like the idea of maximizing the chances of playing 2♥xx, which, imo, my usage does.

[JLOGIC]

+1 to penalty (in context of this auction, 3 good hearts).

[sathyab]

Question for those who play XX to be penalty-oriented: how do you show a stopper, but prefer that partner declare NT in the interest of right-siding it?

Question for those who play XX to show a stopper but what partner declaring NT: how do you show a hand that's penalty-oriented ?

Question for everyone: Is there anything like a "standard" meaning for this sequence ?

[gnasher]

sathyab, on 2011-November-04, 12:06, said:

Question for those who play XX to show a stopper but what partner declaring NT: how do you show a hand that's penalty-oriented ?

I don't.

[mikeh]

sathyab, on 2011-November-04, 12:06, said:

Question for those who play XX to be penalty-oriented: how do you show a stopper, but prefer that partner declare NT in the interest of right-siding it?

Pass. Forcing. Then, the action we take depends on his action. Thus he may bid notrump himself, and, if he doesn't, we may be able to cue 3♥ next. I actually dealt with this in my original post, at least with respect to Ax, and I don't see any other 2 card holding where there is a potential positional advantage to having partner declare.

[kemperb]

gnasher, on 2011-November-04, 13:31, said:

I don't.

That's too bad, because +840 is a fun score to get, not to mention a sizable IMP gain or a (near-)top at MPs. It is not uncommon for partner to have 4 hearts (or 3 good ones) on this auction; if he has an offensive hand, he knows I don't have four hearts and can pull the redouble. There is even still the possibility of right-siding NT, assuming that's even necessary. Who knows if RHO even has an entry to the hearts--he couldn't even muster up a 1♥ bid the previous round.

Fourth suit auctions are usually one of two types of hands: good hands with slam aspirations with a clear direction, or game-forcing (or better) hands with no clear direction. For the former hand type, the 4SF bidder will continue on as if nothing happened. For the latter, your opponent kindly has prevented you an extra option. Why spurn it?

[gnasher]

kemperb, on 2011-November-08, 15:18, said:

That's too bad, because +840 is a fun score to get, not to mention a sizable IMP gain or a (near-)top at MPs. It is not uncommon for partner to have 4 hearts (or 3 good ones) on this auction; if he has an offensive hand, he knows I don't have four hearts and can pull the redouble. There is even still the possibility of right-siding NT, assuming that's even necessary. Who knows if RHO even has an entry to the hearts--he couldn't even muster up a 1♥ bid the previous round.

It seems that your experience differs from mine: I think it's at least five years since someone offered me an opportunity to make FSF redoubled.

I don't agree that partner often has four hearts on this sequence. With 3442, 2443 or 2452 he will nearly always bid 3NT rather than 2♥. Many 3451 shapes will do likewise. The only shapes with four hearts where he'll always bid 2♥ are the ones with club support.

I'm not thrilled by the idea of playing 2♥xx in a 3-3 fit either.

Quote

Fourth suit auctions are usually one of two types of hands: good hands with slam aspirations with a clear direction, or game-forcing (or better) hands with no clear direction. For the former hand type, the 4SF bidder will continue on as if nothing happened. For the latter, your opponent kindly has prevented you an extra option. Why spurn it?

I don't spurn anything, I just use the extra space for another purpose, which I consider more valuable.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on 2011-November-08, 18:26, said:

I'm not thrilled by the idea of playing 2♥xx in a 3-3 fit either.

Why not?

There are, of course, hands on which he was planning to show a strong fit for one of our suits, but redoubling to show Hxx or better doesn't bar him from looking at his hand and acting with some semblance of intelligence.

After all, reasons for bidding 4SF include such mundane hands as holding only one heart stopper himself and fearing that we are 4=1=3=5 rather than 4=3=1=5. He only wanted to play 3N if we had heart length or stopper(s). Or he was simply too strong to bid a committal 3N over our 1♠.

In either case, he will be able to assess the correct action, should we redouble, by assuming we have a normal opening bid with 4=3=1=5 shape.

I can see choosing not to use this approach if your usage offered any significant benefit to make up for the admittedly infrequent loss of a huge pickup, but I don't understand where you see this benefit accruing. When we want to right side notrump, why can't we pass? Even if passing won't always lead to as precise an auction as your usage (and I don't admit that), surely it will usually work well, and in the meantime we have preserved a chance to score hugely...a chance you have decided will never be worth pursuing.

And it is no answer to say that you haven't been offered the chance to make such a penalty redouble in living memory. I bet you haven't been offered the chance to make your 'let's play notrump from your side' redouble very often either.....how often does an opponent choose firstly to pass at the one level and then to make a double that rates to help the opps at least as often and usually more often than it helps partner? This is a situation that won't happen very often.

[jogs]

The goodish hearts penalty oriented

6 of the first 16 votes. What does that choice mean? Almost impossible to hold more than three hearts.
No votes for the only bid that makes sense. First round control of hearts. Which may be a void.

[kemperb]

jogs, on 2011-November-08, 19:05, said:

The goodish hearts penalty oriented

6 of the first 16 votes. What does that choice mean? Almost impossible to hold more than three hearts.
No votes for the only bid that makes sense. First round control of hearts. Which may be a void.

So it doesn't make sense to try for a huge score in 2Hxx? And before you tell me a 3-3 fit can't be profitable, I was once presented such an opportunity after 1C-1S-2H-(X)-XX holding ATx,KTx,A,AK8xxx. Pard had Q9xxx,Qxx,KQxxx,- and we were cold for an overtrick (+1240) despite a 6-1 trump split, with no slam remotely possible. Yes, it was a dumb double by my LHO (who had AJ9xxx and out), but why should we have let her off the hook by playing some artificial redouble?

Besides, how often are you going to have a void on this auction? Why didn't anyone bid hearts before? So that means your interpretation virtually always will show the ace, but why is it so urgent to show it now?