[wyman]

(2S) X (P) 3C
(P) 3D

Assume Leaping Michaels and no Lebensohl (but I think that Leb is a non-issue).

1) What shapes are acceptable for doubler?

2) What's a minimum hand for doubler? (vs overcalling with the shapes you've mentioned in (1))

[kenrexford]

This depends. If the partnership is using Equal Level Conversion, then doubler merely has something like 4♥/5+diamonds and nothing extra.

[wyman]

kenrexford, on 2012-April-25, 10:47, said:

This depends. If the partnership is using Equal Level Conversion, then doubler merely has something like 4♥/5+diamonds and nothing extra.

The pair is not playing ELC as a general agreement. If this auction were a level lower, this would show a big hand.

[ahydra]

I like to play this as D + H and a slightly-better-than-minimum X. If that's not the pair's agreement, then so be it (if they play (1S)-X-(p)-2C-(p)-2D as showing a big hand then this auction would probably show the same).

For example with x KQ10x AQxxx Kxx, starting with X is a good idea because you can show the 4-card heart suit. If I had 5 hearts and 4 diamonds I'd overcall 2H instead.

ahydra

[Phil]

3♦ is forcing playing Lebensohl. I would not expect 3♦ to be forcing without Lebensohl, but that seems unplayable to me.

Assuming you did play Lebensohl, on the low end it can show an offshape double thats better than a minimum. For instance, if I chose to x 2♠ on xx AQxx QJxxx Ax I would take my lumps in 3♣ and hope I was in a 5-2. Add a King, and I would bid 3♦.

On the high end, I would expect any flexible good hand, although if I had a massive diamond single suiter, I have the option of 4♦ over 3♣.

[wyman]

I thought with a massive ♦ single suiter, I'd start with 3♠. Maybe I have more to learn than I thought...

[gszes]

If you are not using leb strongly consider adding it to
your system. w/o leb your 3c bid can literally be
xxx xxx xxx xxxx up to say xx KQ xxx Kxxxxx.
This range is so enormous it is unplayable. What you
give up is the opportunity to play 2n - a very small
target among a wide variety of possiblities still
available.

If not using leb or elc 3d is a hand probably worth around 20
points but not good enough to bid 3s.

[wyman]

I am used to playing Lebensohl, so maybe this is the problem. Like Phil, I'm used to correcting to 3D over 3C in this auction with anything better than min. But if partner drops me in clubs, I'll just hope for the best with a min with 2 clubs.

This actually came up when we had the auction (2S) 3D, and I made the point that partner has a decent inference that I don't have 4 hearts (or if I do, I have a pretty minimum hand). This sparked a lot of discussion about ELC and the like.

The more I think about this, the more I agree maybe I need to have quite a bit to X+3D without Lebensohl.

But at the 4 level, I don't think the same principle applies. So it's not clear it has to apply here (i.e., we could agree ELC in these auctions to make rules about auctions over preempts consistent).

But perhaps the best solution is to just play Lebensohl

[Zelandakh]

I would suggest a general rule: when the opponents preempt then double and bid shows a good flexible hand (conversion in effect). Therefore double here just shows the red suits (there are different styles for the relative lengths so you do need to discuss this a little with a serious partner). If we had a good one-suited hand with diamonds then it is necessary to choose one of 3♠, 3NT or 5♦ instead of double.