[eagles123]

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Form of scoring: MP

system: 4 card majors weak NT


any blame here?

thanks,

Eagles

[Cyberyeti]

What do you play 3♥ over 1♠ as by a passed hand ? I probably do pass in second seat.

Once N knows S has a lot of major suit cards, his 2 minor suit aces and ♥ Ax are golden.

4♠ is a bit lazy over 4♦ AKxxx, xxxx, x, Kxx is perfectly plausible opposite if you don't open this

[chasetb]

1.) I would pass in 2nd seat, unless you have a pre-emptive opening that specifically shows this hand type.

2.) I highly recommend that after partner opens in 3rd or 4th seat, that you play fit-showing jumps. You promise at least 4 trump to an honor, and at least 5 cards in the suit shown, to the King or Ace. I usually prefer 2/top 3 or 3/top 5, but with 6-card Spade support I am not even slightly worried about missing a few intermediates in Hearts. We want to force to game, and by bidding 3♥ we get more space to show that diamond shortness/control, and then you should find the slam.

3.) North has two things partner won't expect - above minimum values, and a 5-card suit. However, I would be afraid of missing some trump honors (I don't have enough experience with 4-card Majors though). Still, I am likely to bid 4♥, whether it be a cuebid or Last Train. After that, like billw55 I don't know how to proceed.

[billw55]

North has a great hand opposite a splinter, I really think 4♥ should be automatic. Although I am less sure how things will proceed after that.

[mike777]

I don't play unlimited splinters or fit jumps so I can see this is going to be a problem hand if pard opens 1h or 1s in 4th seat. This hand is far too good for a splinter bid. I mean this is an adjusted 5 loser hand after pard opens 1s in 4th seat which will not be a light opening bid.

I will open a wk 2spades by south.

If forced to pass I guess I would try 5d exclusion after 1s.

[neilkaz]

billw55, on 2014-March-11, 09:21, said:

North has a great hand opposite a splinter, I really think 4♥ should be automatic. Although I am less sure how things will proceed after that.

Yes, north has WAY too much to sign off in 4♠ when a straight forward lower Q is available to show interest.

[MrAce]

South would splinter when holding KJxxxx Kxxx x Jx also, which makes slam ugly. I agree though N has perfect hand to act over splinter.(length in splinter suit and not wasted hcps) 4 ♠ was lousy bid. After all even if S held the hand i constructed, we can make it on ♥ finesse and some luck.(such as no one holding more than 4 hearts or doubleton ♥ holder has stiff ♠ A or void....)

[Cascade]

North has extras and nothing (much) wasted in diamonds. It should be automatic to bid 4♥. This does not commit to slam and partner will only move with something extra which he has.

Curiously I am not sure that opening 2♠ will make it easier to get to slam. South has too much to show after that start - maximum values, five card side suit and void. Perhaps 1♠ is better. After which slam should be easily reached. I think it is fairly normal to open light with distribution at these colours.

[Cyberyeti]

Cascade, on 2014-March-11, 15:39, said:

North has extras and nothing (much) wasted in diamonds. It should be automatic to bid 4♥. This does not commit to slam and partner will only move with something extra which he has.

Curiously I am not sure that opening 2♠ will make it easier to get to slam. South has too much to show after that start - maximum values, five card side suit and void. Perhaps 1♠ is better. After which slam should be easily reached. I think it is fairly normal to open light with distribution at these colours.

What would you expect partner to have for the sequence 2♠-2N-4♣/♦/♥ ? If this shows a decent 6/5, reaching the slam should be easy

[MrAce]

I really dont understand the 4♥ bidders. They admit N has a great hand, they have all controls, and they know the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99 and they still bid 4♥.

[eagles123]

thanks folks, I was S on this hand. I did think my p's 4S bid was a little negative but the more I looked at it the more i thought I maybe hadn't done my own hand justice.

Mr Ace: what are you suggesting instead of 4H?

thanks,

Eagles

[MrAce]

eagles123, on 2014-March-12, 01:29, said:

thanks folks, I was S on this hand. I did think my p's 4S bid was a little negative but the more I looked at it the more i thought I maybe hadn't done my own hand justice.

Mr Ace: what are you suggesting instead of 4H?

thanks,

Eagles

4 NT rkcb if you decided that you wanna be in slam vs enough keycards.( this is what most people do when they decide that they loved the splinter suit and their hands match well, especially when their hand is above the 11-14 range ) This is the simplest way N can learn about AK of spades, missing most important cards in his hand. Cues are meant for other things depending on auction. Cues indicates the bidder has some problems other than wondering the keycards. Such as fear of losing 2 fast tricks in 1 suit, such as not holding enough keycards in his hand to ask the keycards, such as not knowing what to do when he learns the keycards. If the splinter was not coming from a passed hand and has variable ranges, a cue can be used for mentioning things like "i like the splinter suit but minimum" or vice versa. We have none of those problems, after we decided that our hand has it all vs the diamond splinter.

If you really have an allergy to RKCB, or still want your pd to have a say in final decision, then bid 5♠ or something.

I don't know if 4♥ was meant as last train or some sort of invitation. But then again how will they control cue in another hand, lets say with AKxxx A AKxx JTx ? Now this is an "auto 4♥ " to me. In case pd holds Qxxx KQJx x Qxxx

I just don't get it, what do we expect to hear from pd by bidding 4♥ when we hold all these values and 1st round controls ? how do we expect to learn about spade AK ? Pd can make splinter with Txxx KQxx x KQxx or the hand in OP, or KJxx Jxxx x KQxx or something different. You will see some players play even the 4 level bids as 1st round control, let alone 5 level.

Pd, thinking that you are hoping to hear club control, will bid 4♠ with a hand like ATxx KQxx x xxxx, reasonably fearing 5♠ may go down when cuer holds something like KQxxx A Axx QJxx . All 4♥ bidders then will bid 4 NT probably with the OP hand, kindly giving some info to opponents on their way to slam. An info that has almost zero use for our side + less time left for the play at MP.

I know cue instead of rkcb is considered as a " 1337 " bidding in forums but imo cueing when there is not much merit to it is as bad as using rkcb when there is not much merit to know how many keycards our side has.

[cherdano]

MrAce, on 2014-March-11, 16:50, said:

the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99

Why?

[MrAce]

cherdano, on 2014-March-12, 02:40, said:

Why?

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 Pass is ok, matter of style and agreement
If you have a opening bid to show 65 in the majors, use it, an option is 3NT.
#2 Missing the slam is just live

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2014-March-12, 02:53, said:

I will not write the 2nd time. Read above.

But what do you lose by bidding 4♥ before 4N over 4♠ ? If partner does bid 5♥ or 5♦ as here, you just bid the slam.

[Zelandakh]

MrAce, on 2014-March-11, 16:50, said:

I really dont understand the 4♥ bidders. They admit N has a great hand, they have all controls, and they know the response to 4♥ will be 4♠ %99 and they still bid 4♥.

Perhaps they are planning to bid 5♣ over a 4♠ response showing the 2 outside controls?

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2014-March-12, 11:07, said:

Perhaps they are planning to bid 5♣ over a 4♠ response showing the 2 outside controls?

Why are they showing ? What is it that they expect pd to learn and know exactly what to do ? Why not asking instead ? Are you telling me they are on their way to show everything except than spades so pd can understand we have problems in trumps ? If so just ask and learn his spades. Where is that rkcb fobia coming from ?

Cyberyeti, on 2014-March-12, 08:15, said:

But what do you lose by bidding 4♥ before 4N over 4♠ ? If partner does bid 5♥ or 5♦ as here, you just bid the slam.

What do you gain if you are going to 4 NT over 4♠ anyway ? I could have sympathy if you told me that you would pass over 4♠ thinking pd holds something like AKJx Txxxx void Qxxx but i already wrote above and gave examples why this is gonna cost problems in another hand. I will not be able to stop if pd has this and we are not down yet. But i suppose you would want your pd to bid 5♦ with this and come to slam like me anyway.

I also wrote what you will lose by bidding 4♥. Some may even argue that 4 NT after 4♥ when pd did not cooperate, is not rkcb, since we could rkcb the previous round if we wanted to.
You lose by giving road map to opponents, 4♥ or 5♥ will not only give opponents some info but also will give hints about the lead. It may be doubled or even not doubling is a hint. You lose by reducing the time for the declarer play in a MP event, and you torture your pd for no gain. You will sometimes also lose by opening a road to hesitation and legal issues for no gain. For example you bid 4♥ and pd bid 4♠ a little slow, now you have a headache, and a big one trying to explain opponents and TD that you were planning to use 4 NT anyway, when they asked you then why you did not previous round ? You need to protect your pd, your self, from little obstacles like that when the merit of a fancy bidding does not justify taking all these risks and losses.

Note that i am not saying the slam i am driving to will be a good one always. But once we decided to move, cueing is not gonna help us investigate and learn efficiently in this hand while same method does not cost in another hand. Basically we should keep it simple and spend our time and focus on the declarer play of our slam.

[gszes]

5d over 4d. The N hand is very good opposite a aplinter but slam is
a poor proposition opposite a minimum p might have as a passed hand.
The 5d bid lets p know we have all the side suits controlled but we have
insufficient values to take over by ourselves and asks them to go to
6 with a really excellent passed hand 4d bid and that having a void
is not sufficient reason to venture to 6 since we have the dia ACE.

MrAce points out the many players willing to bid 4h but I feel that
is too important to save that bid (and 5c) for hands that do not have
all the side suits controlled (yet have slam interest).

[mike777]

cuebidding above game level often leads to confusion rather than clarity.

glad I just take the bull by the horns and try 5d exclusion and live with the risks or open 2s in the first place and live with that risk.