[diana_eva]

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Team match on BBO, pretty random. Unknown partner but seems decent enough. IMPs, X is penalty (no detailed agreements on what kind of hands it would include). East's pass not alerted as anything, and your EW are a random partnership as well.

Now what? Pass or bid?

[P_Marlowe]

Pass.

Game is not a sure think, ..., and if partner has 15+, you will collect
at least 500, so your odds of getting 620 need to be quite good.

I am not letting them play 2m, in this case I will bid 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[MrAce]

Game

[the hog]

Partner makes a penalty x and I hold this hand? I pass of course.

[whereagles]

Pull to 3♠. It's not likely LHO is going to sit this, nor is it a certainty we're going to profit from the set.

[ArtK78]

It could certainly be right to pass. You might not have a game (or even a good spade fit) and 1NTx could be the best spot for you. But it is not out of the question for partner to have a balanced 16 count and the opps have 7 (or more) tricks based on a lot of minor suit cards. Or beating 1NTx may depend on partner leading a spade, and that is certainly not likely.

I bid 3♠. Partner should continue on to game unless he has a totally unsuitable hand.

[the hog]

ArtK78, on 2014-May-13, 06:08, said:

It could certainly be right to pass. You might not have a game (or even a good spade fit) and 1NTx could be the best spot for you. But it is not out of the question for partner to have a balanced 16 count and the opps have 7 (or more) tricks based on a lot of minor suit cards. Or beating 1NTx may depend on partner leading a spade, and that is certainly not likely.

I bid 3♠. Partner should continue on to game unless he has a totally unsuitable hand.

It is out of the question for pd to hold a random bal 16 count. Oh wait, this is a Bbo pickup. Anything is possible. I still pass.

[hrothgar]

I pass.

Wish I could cough for a spade lead, but such are there perils of online bridge.

[helene_t]

hrothgar, on 2014-May-13, 06:22, said:

I pass.

Wish I could cough for a spade lead, but such are there perils of online bridge.

Ant590 had a nice suggestion for this years BBO April Fool story: a cough button in the next version of the web interface

[Cyberyeti]

P_Marlowe, on 2014-May-13, 03:24, said:

Pass.

Game is not a sure think, ..., and if partner has 15+, you will collect
at least 500, so your odds of getting 620 need to be quite good.

I am not letting them play 2m, in this case I will bid 4S.

With kind regards
Marlowe

There is no guarantee of collecting a decent penalty from 1Nx or of making 4♠, particularly as partner is not going to find the right lead against 1N, you only have an 8 count, so there is the possibility of dummy having 4 or 5 points which could be embarrassing to partner, particularly if he leads from a not great 4 card suit in a balanced hand.

One agreement that we find useful here is that we will never sit 2m undoubled once we've doubled 1N.

That said, I think bidding is probably right, Axxx, Ax, xxxx, AKx is not implausible, and is 800 out of 1N but makes 6♠ for example. I think a lot of the time it's close to a wash as it will be 500/620. Playing with a random it's not easy, I'd love to have 4♦ available as a sort of longer spades and 4 hearts type bid here, my worry is that I bid some number of spades and catch partner with x, AQJxx, KQxx, Axx or similar. 4♠ doesn't make but 4♥ does, and not clear we can get there.

[Trinidad]

whereagles, on 2014-May-13, 05:20, said:

Pull to 3♠. It's not likely LHO is going to sit this, nor is it a certainty we're going to profit from the set.

So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?

If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

Rik

[GBinUS]

General rule: at this vulnerability, take the likely game, 620 vs maybe 500, maybe more. At equal or favorable vul., I will defend and go for the big number.

BTW.. I am bidding 4S or pass. 3S is NOT an option.

[kenberg]

I think the on thing that I would not do is to bid 3♠. Assuming that all bids are honest, I know that partner has a (at least close to) minimum point count. Bidding 3♠ wouold not, to my mind, ask partner whether he fits spades. It's closer to saying that spades are trump. I don't really care about partner's spades but I need him to have a little extra. He won't have any extra. He will probably pass, even if he does hold the Jack of spade.

So I am not bidding 3♠. I think I go with 4♠ . Yes this could be wrong, but I think that's my choice. If I double a strong NT on a 15 or 16 count I have a decent suit that can be led w/o blowing a trick. I suppose partner will be leading something like the King of diamonds. He certainly is not going to lead a spade. I am far from certain that I will ever be scoring my spades, and if I am not then I don't think we are getting 800.

On hands such as this, no one knows what is going to work out best and, absent some agreements that no one I know has, there is no way to communicate well. So one person has to take the bull by the horns and do as s/he thinks best. I bid 4♠. And if instead I am the doubler and partner chooses wrong I either shut up or express my sympathy for a tough choice.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-May-13, 06:37, said:

There is no guarantee of collecting a decent penalty from 1Nx or of making 4♠, particularly as partner is not going to find the right lead against 1N, you only have an 8 count, so there is the possibility of dummy having 4 or 5 points which could be embarrassing to partner, particularly if he leads from a not great 4 card suit in a balanced hand.

One agreement that we find useful here is that we will never sit 2m undoubled once we've doubled 1N.

That said, I think bidding is probably right, Axxx, Ax, xxxx, AKx is not implausible, and is 800 out of 1N but makes 6♠ for example. I think a lot of the time it's close to a wash as it will be 500/620. Playing with a random it's not easy, I'd love to have 4♦ available as a sort of longer spades and 4 hearts type bid here, my worry is that I bid some number of spades and catch partner with x, AQJxx, KQxx, Axx or similar. 4♠ doesn't make but 4♥ does, and not clear we can get there.

In what universe does the deck hold enough hcp for dummy to hold 4 or 5 points?

Probably the same universe in which we can reach and make 6♠

I happen to think that doubling a strong 1N with a balanved 16 is bad bridge in the long run, but the evidence suggests that either partner disagrees or he has a long suit to lead, expecting to beat them with that suit, and it will be a minor, not a major.

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2014-May-13, 07:43, said:

In what universe does the deck hold enough hcp for dummy to hold 4 or 5 points?

Probably the same universe in which we can reach and make 6♠

I happen to think that doubling a strong 1N with a balanved 16 is bad bridge in the long run, but the evidence suggests that either partner disagrees or he has a long suit to lead, expecting to beat them with that suit, and it will be a minor, not a major.

A universe where I read the 1N as 12-14.

Pass is now a lot safer, and I agree with your comments about the X on a balanced hand.

What nobody has mentioned is the real possibility that partner has doubled this with a running minor and less points than you'd expect, now 4♠ could be grim.

[kenberg]

Cyberyeti, on 2014-May-13, 08:05, said:

What nobody has mentioned is the real possibility that partner has doubled this with a running minor and less points than you'd expect, now 4♠ could be grim.

Although I didn't mention it, it did occur to me. I decided to hope this wasn't so.

I once doubled a strong NT holding a running six card spade suit and an outside Ace. After +100 or +200 whichever it was (and I hope it was +200), declarer threatened to call the director because I had doubled with out the requisite 15 highs. Dummy announced in a clear voice that he wished to be left out of any such director call.

I think, especially if playing with a partner who does not know your style, that if you have a running diamond suit you should bid some number of diamonds. With my spades back in the hand I just mentioned, I had decent values plus the boss suit. With running diamonds and not all that much outside of diamonds, I would expect it to be less likely that the X would be followed by three passes, and I would expect it to be more difficult to get my suit in later. So I would just bid diamonds.

But yes, partner might think differently.

[diana_eva]

I was the doubler and my pd had the long spade hand. She tanked for a while then bid 3♠, I raised to game and that was it. Turns out we had 11 tricks to cash defending 1NT. Looking at her hand, I think she had a tough decision there and I'd probably bid too in her place.

I gave the hand to GIB out of curiosity, and GIB pulled the x to 2♠.

Oh, and we lost 12 IMPs when the other table played 3♠x+3 LOL

This was the full deal:

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[whereagles]

Trinidad, on 2014-May-13, 06:38, said:

1. So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?
2. If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

1. I believe in getting 1100 on this as much as on promises by Herman van Rompuy

2. Well, given that I think passing is futile, I might as well describe the hand, right?

[the hog]

Trinidad, on 2014-May-13, 06:38, said:

So, you are going to run away from a possible 1100, just becauses the opponent might run to, say, 2♦?

If 3♠ is the right bid, why don't we make it after LHO ran to 2♦, instead of doing the running for him? If LHO runs, we do get another chance.

Rik

Exactly. Why not try for the big penalty. Pd should not have a random 15-16 count. If he does only have 15 or so, he should have a decent lead and passing the x will do no harm as he will have a lead. I expect pd to be able to switch to a S soon enough for me to collect quite a few S tricks. If he leads a H I am not unhappy either.
Bid x numbers of S after, (IF), they run to a minor.

Edit after looking at the hand - there you go, after cashing 5C and seeing my signal for a S, declarer is still going down today.<br><br>CY, where did the op say she was playing a weak NT? I would suggest that in this forum a strong NT is the norm unless otherwise is explicitly stated.<br>

[Cyberyeti]

the hog, on 2014-May-13, 18:47, said:

Exactly. Why not try for the big penalty. Pd should not have a random 15-16 count. If he does only have 15 or so, he should have a decent lead and passing the x will do no harm as he will have a lead. I expect pd to be able to switch to a S soon enough for me to collect quite a few S tricks. If he leads a H I am not unhappy either.
Bid x numbers of S after, (IF), they run to a minor.

Edit after looking at the hand - there you go, after cashing 5C and seeing my signal for a S, declarer is still going down today.<br><br>CY, where did the op say she was playing a weak NT? I would suggest that in this forum a strong NT is the norm unless otherwise is explicitly stated.<br>

I already told you I misread it, I was also reading another intervention over 1N thread where it was a weak NT and got them confused.

TBF, do nothing other than make the opposing clubs 4-2 and you're only getting 500 although game is not then guaranteed your way.