[Rickysa]

Hi all!

I often find myself (in the world of Bridge Baron ) holding a five card major with game support and am not sure how to show it in response to a one minor open. Mentioning the major of course shows 4, but I seem to wind up in NT even with a 5/3 fit once dummy shows. I ask this because, with the 5 card major and holding weak in the other major, I hate winding up in NT if partner is also weak in the second major. Rebidding shows six, so is there way around this?

Thanks for any replys!

[wank]

i don't know this bridge baron of your's, but it's normal for responder's 2♣ rebid (and 2♦ in some more advanced methods) to ask for further definition from opener, in particular a 3rd card in responder's suit. this is called checkback. think of it as being a bit like delayed stayman.

[Rickysa]

Beautiful, Wank!

Just what I was looking for...many thanks!

If playing pickup in BBO, how would (or should) this be decided...since I don't believe it's SAYC.

I see that Cohen says:

Quote

"New Minor" should NOT be on in competition (of any kind)

on his site.

New minor forcing vs. checkback would be something to pre-determine?

[mgoetze]

Yes, there a dozens of conventions designed specifically to deal with this situation. As a beginner, the two relevant ones you may want to consider are "New Minor Forcing" and "Checkback Stayman".

"New Minor Forcing" works as follows: Your partner opens 1 of a minor, you respond 1 of a major, and partner rebids 1NT. If you now bid 2 of the other minor (than the one your partner opened), then this is an artificial, forcing bid that does not promise any sort of holding in the suit you bid. An example:

---

2♦ does not promise anything in diamonds. It is simply asking partner, "partner, do you have 3 hearts and/or 4 spades?"

You should have at least invitational strength to bid NMF. Assuming your 1NT rebid shows 12-14 points, this means you should have at least 11 points to bid NMF.

Checkback Stayman is much the same, except that the asking bid is always 2♣, regardless of whether partner opened 1♣ or 1♦.

[Rickysa]

That is great information, and it certainly plugs a hole in my bidding education folder

I found a chapter online in Marvin French's book :"Marvin's Conventions and Treatments." in .pdf form, but hesitate to include the address for fear of copyright issues....should anyone else be interested in learning more, a google search of "CHECKBACK STAYMAN BY RESPONDER" should show you to the site.

Many thanks for the info!

[neilkaz]

Here in the US, NMF is the most common, at least where I've lived and played. Of course, Checkback is fine as well.

I remain amazed that NMF is not included in SAYC.

[ahydra]

If opener's rebid is not in NT, but instead he repeats his first suit, bidding another suit will generally show 5-4. Also bidding 3-card minor suits can be a useful way to find 5-3 major fits, e.g.

1D-1S
2D-3C

where you hold KQJxx xxx xx AQx. With no stop in hearts and no sixth spade your only choice is to invent a "fake" 3C, after which partner shows three-card spade support if he has it.

ahydra

[Cthulhu D]

It's worth noting that there are generally three goals with system design here:

1) Find all 4-4 fits
2) Find all 5-3 fits
3) Don't play in 4-3 fits or 5-2 fits.

and various approaches to bidding cater to dealing with them. You've discovered the weakness of the responding with 4 but never raising on 3 - you miss a bunch of 5-3 fits. Of course there are solutions: http://web.mit.edu/m...r_Suit_Fits.pdf has a good review. NMF is one of the simplest ways of meeting all three criteria on invitational or better hands.

[helene_t]

 Rickysa, on 2014-October-08, 10:32, said:

Rebidding shows six, so is there way around this?

More importantly, rebidding it at the 2-level is weak while rebidding it at the 3-level is invitational (about 10-11 points), so you would have to rebid it at the 4-level to be sure you reach game.

Not playing any check back convention you would have to fake the unbid minor suit at the 3-level or fake a reverse, i.e.

1♣-1♠
1NT-3♦

or

1♣-1♥
1NT-2♠

both of which would be forcing and give partner a chance to show 3-card support.

[MrAce]

 Rickysa, on 2014-October-08, 10:32, said:

Hi all!

I often find myself (in the world of Bridge Baron ) holding a five card major with game support and am not sure how to show it in response to a one minor open. Mentioning the major of course shows 4, but I seem to wind up in NT even with a 5/3 fit once dummy shows. I ask this because, with the 5 card major and holding weak in the other major, I hate winding up in NT if partner is also weak in the second major. Rebidding shows six, so is there way around this?

Thanks for any replys!

Basically what they are saying is, you do NOT show 5 card major as responder. You show either 4 or 6. (rebidding your major means you have 6 of them) When you have 5 of them, instead of showing, you ASK to pd whether he has 3 of them or not. There are various ways to ask and I will not get into them here, since above posters already mentioned some of them. Choose the one that you are most comfy with among those imho.

But keep in mind that, responder ASKS opener whether he has 3 card support ONLY when he has invitation or better hands (apprx 11+) With weaker hands, you either pass or give suit preference to pd (usually returning to his first suit cheaply is called preference and does not mean you support him, it only means you are willing to sign of as soon as you can unless he has extras for his opening, such as 16+), or bid 1 NT if available and suitable.

[Rickysa]

Quote

Basically what they are saying is, you do NOT show 5 card major as responder. You show either 4 or 6.....(snip) But keep in mind that, responder ASKS opener whether he has 3 card support ONLY when he has invitation or better hands (apprx 11+)

Yessir, that is the exact situation I would find myself in and be flummoxed and frustrated by the lack of ability to communicate it...reading Kantor's description of checkback makes it seem pretty slick.

[gordontd]

 neilkaz, on 2014-October-08, 13:03, said:

I remain amazed that NMF is not included in SAYC.

One of the functions of NMF (finding a fit in the other major) is rendered unnecessary in SAYC because it rebids a major at the one level with balanced hands.

[helene_t]

TBH I don't think new minor forcing should be part of a standard system. Pairs can decide to add whichever check-back they prefer. Or just stay without a checkback mechanism, is hardly worse than playing NMF. For the same reasons, SAYC does not include a fancy 1NT defence.

If I sat down with a pick-up partner, agreeing "SAYC" and having five minutes to discuss additional gadgets, I would have other priorities. Like lebensohl, and getting rid of some of SAYC's silly penalty doubles.

[Antrax]

Karen Walker's page is a very good place to know when starting out. Here's her page about NMF: http://home.comcast....wbridge/nmf.htm