[harikannan]

Both non-vul in IMPs, my partner dealt and opened 1H, which was overcalled 1S on my right.

I held 6;KJ2;6;AKJ97432.

I bid 2C, my LHO bid 3S, which was doubled by my partner. My RHO now bid 4S and there I was. How should I reason and decide? Thanks in advance.

[DavidKok]

Ideally you would reason last round. Your hand has three pieces of information to share:

• You have support for partner.
  
• Your hand is going to force to game.
  
• You have a long and strong club suit.

After the 1♠ overcall and in view of your extreme distribution it is very likely that the auction will become contested. It is pertinent to share as much information as quickly as possible, to collaborate with partner on the likely 5-over-4 or even 6-over-5 or 7-over-6 decisions. If the partnership played this and allowed it on a 3-card suit (both are my preference) I would prefer a 4♣ fitbid last round. Partner won't know we have eight clubs, but will at least play us for a hand with fit, long clubs, and offensive values to force to game (our hand happens to be worth a full game force, but I can't show that immediately).
By concealing your support last round (and, in fact, also some of your values) you are now faced with an unpleasant decision at the 5-level.


That being said there's also good news. Partner's takeout double suggests a lack of defence against spades, extra values, and some club tolerance or support. We have a lot of extras and excellent support. We should be playing at the 5-level at least, and I would invite a slam. Personally I like the agreement here that a direct 5♥ is forward-going while bidding 4NT and then correcting to 5♥ is weaker. If you play 4NT as a form of ace asking that also works out very well on this deal, since we have controls in all suits and plenty of playing strength, provided partner has a sufficient number of key cards.

[shyams]

---

Does partner's double have a specific meaning?

Presumably not penalties, because if it was then East's 4♠ makes no sense.

In any case, with the hand you have, Pass is definitely not something I'd even consider as possible.

The question is whether 5♥ will be a "competitive" bid or whether it shows extras (I play it as "competitive"). You wouldn't want to miss out on a slam so if you have a bid for extras, you'd want to use it here.

[harikannan]

"I would prefer a 4♣ fitbid last round. Partner won't know we have eight clubs, but will at least play us for a hand with fit, long clubs, and offensive values to force to game (our hand happens to be worth a full game force, but I can't show that immediately)."

Thanks for the idea. What would jump to 3C mean? I thought 4C would be splinter in support of hearts?

[harikannan]

"The question is whether 5♥ will be a "competitive" bid or whether it shows extras (I play it as 'competitive')." Thanks for the suggestion.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

as the bidding went, I would forget about showing the heart support,
you have a 7 card suit, clubs will be your best fit, so bid 5C.

For whats it worth, I dont mind 2C, instead of showing the fit and
inv+ values.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mw64ahw]

Either ♥ or ♣ will work. Hopefully 4NT is Ace asking, but I would not settle for 5♣ . Perhaps 5NT as a choice of slams is better

[shyams]

harikannan, on 2024-July-02, 05:55, said:

"The question is whether 5♥ will be a "competitive" bid or whether it shows extras (I play it as 'competitive')." Thanks for the suggestion.

I must point out that this is a matter on partnership agreement.

You will notice that DavidKok's bidding agreement uses a different approach (see below)

DavidKok, on 2024-July-01, 22:31, said:

Personally I like the agreement here that a direct 5♥ is forward-going while bidding 4NT and then correcting to 5♥ is weaker.

It is quite possible that his agreement structure is superior to what I personally prefer.

[DavidKok]

The idea is that nominally 4NT is 'two places to play', e.g. compatible with a 1=2=4=6 or so. But if partner picks diamonds and we then correct to hearts, partner won't know whether we had clubs+hearts and wanted to give partner another chance to show preference for our suit, or whether we had the 'slow constructive heart raise'.
By putting the weak heart raise in 4NT and the forward-going one in the direct 5♥, instead partner will on the slower sequence not know whether we have the weak heart raise or the 'choose between clubs and hearts' hand. But the fact that partner doesn't know also doesn't matter, since both hands are slam-negative and we've reached the top suit our side might want to play in at the 5-level.

[apollo1201]

What about a FP then removing partner s likely new X? To show a strong desire of more and not just a ok you have extras let s go for +450 hand.

Clearly the X puts us in this situation in case my 2/1 did not already create it.

With a 8-3 shape we knew the round before that we were scr*** and I am no t sure a fit bit with only 3-cd support and such a suit disparity solves all or gives a better picture of my hand.

[DavidKok]

I think pass is not forcing here, when partner has described so much about their hand already. Our 2♣ bid does not set one up - it's just a competitive bid, as much as technically it was a 2-level bid over a 1-level overcall, it does not have the strength requirements of other 2/1 bids. I am not convinced the double should either, that would limit partner's ability to double or my ability to overcall a lot. Keep in mind forcing passes are costly gadgets - playing them disallows taking action on competitive auctions with minimum offensively oriented hands, as now partner might be endplayed into doubling with mediocre defence just because pass was forcing.
But even if it did, I don't expect partner to double here if we pass. A forcing pass here would give partner the freedom to bid at the 5-level, and they may well spoil our plans by bidding. Correcting that doesn't show a strong hand, it shows a flexible hand, and our 13 cards are anything but. Forcing pass doesn't double your constructive sequences, it merely gives you a little bit more room in deciding whether or not to bid. Sorry to be blunt, I think many people will invoke 'obviously forcing' passes in situations where from their hand it is clear they want to bid again, but by partnership agreement the situation is vague at best. What's more, I've struggled a lot with partners making forcing passes on lots of shapely hands where it was inappropriate, wishing to show off the gadget. As far as I know it does not work the way you describe.

[pescetom]

harikannan, on 2024-July-02, 05:54, said:

"I would prefer a 4♣ fitbid last round. Partner won't know we have eight clubs, but will at least play us for a hand with fit, long clubs, and offensive values to force to game (our hand happens to be worth a full game force, but I can't show that immediately)."

Thanks for the idea. What would jump to 3C mean? I thought 4C would be splinter in support of hearts?

I think this deserves a reply.

[smerriman]

It's a pretty common agreement that you can only splinter in the opponents' suit (assuming they have bid one). Though with 3♣ also being a jump, I agree I'm also unsure about the difference between 3♣ and 4♣.

[mikeh]

Obviously we’d like to know what kind of hand partner was showing via his double, and any answer in ignorance of that is just guesswork. Of course, maybe we don’t have an agreement, so guesswork is all we have.

Assuming it showed xtra values with no clear direction (say xx AQxxx AKJx Qx as an example…but I’m ok if he doesn’t have that club queen) then we have a remarkable hand.

The one area where I profoundly disagree with everyone is whether to show heart support. It’s often said at least half in jest….but what do you call an eight card suit? Trump.

Give him xx Axxxx AKQx Qx or even x Axxxxx AKJx Qx…..where do you want to play the contract? This is posted as an imp problem, so playing 6H may well be silly.

I’m bidding 6C. I don’t really have any way of checking for keycards….whatever 4N means, it isn’t keycard for hearts, a suit we’ve never supported and which partner didn’t bid again. I don’t think it should even be ace asking. So I make what I think has to be the value bid.

Now, if partner was simply trying to slow us down by his double (not an approach for which I’d have any sympathy) this choice may backfire, but I’ll take my chances. I’ll double 6S, hoping it’s a phantom. I’d lead my stiff diamond in an effort to maximize the penalty.

[harikannan]

Mikeh: No prior agreement. He held: KQ, A9754, QJT85, 5.

[harikannan]

Thanks to all. Still, I could not understand why 4C as first bid as responder won't be splinter in support of hearts, if 3C can show a fit jump. If so, what would 4C mean?

[mikeh]

harikannan, on 2024-July-02, 21:09, said:

Mikeh: No prior agreement. He held: KQ, A9754, QJT85, 5.

Well, I do know that the game is difficult and no doubt he thought that he had his reasons, but (a) KQ tight is NOT a good trump holding for defence, (b) ruffing a club would be with a natural trump trick, © he has a minimum hand that just got worse on the bidding. Far too many players, imo, forget that the pass card is an informative tool. Here, for example, passing 3S says ‘I don’t have a clear action, and don’t think we own this hand unless you have extras.

Pass isn’t surrendering…it’s conveying valuable information to partner. What partner should do if 3S gets passed around…I’d probably bid 4H…hearts rate to be ok at the 4 level most of the time…for slam I’d prefer clubs but slam is unlikely after partner passes 3S…unlikely isn’t impossible but chasing slam is simply too risky. Over 4S, however, I’m bidding 5C, not 5H.

[Cyberyeti]

I agree with Mike that pass is obvious without agreements for your partner.

We have the agreement that it doesn't show extra values, but does show diamonds so is a candidate.

That said if you don't have a heart fit it could defend like a dream, picture xx, x, Axxx, Axxxxx and you could be getting 4 trump tricks and 3 aces with that barely being a 2♣ bid.

The counter argument for 5♣ being better than 4♥ is that if partner does have something like Kx, AQ10xxx, Kxxx, x or anything with a void club you may need the ♣Q to drop in 5♣ but not in 4♥ (and if they force the dummy, you just accept it and take multiple ruffs)

[P_Marlowe]

harikannan, on 2024-July-02, 21:15, said:

Thanks to all. Still, I could not understand why 4C as first bid as responder won't be splinter in support of hearts, if 3C can show a fit jump. If so, what would 4C mean?

If you buy, that after an intervention, there is only 1 splinter, their suit, the diff between 3C and 4C is simply more extreme shape.
3C may even be passed, 4C would be forcing to game.

It is rare.

You could also agree to make the bid a splinter, making the fit jump bid forcing (non passable).

On a side note: If you play xfer responses to an overcalls 3C wont be fit jump anymore, but 4C keeps the meaning.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2024-July-02, 15:08, said:

harikannan, on 2024-July-02, 05:54, said:

What would jump to 3C mean? I thought 4C would be splinter in support of hearts?

I think this deserves a reply.

Sorry, I overlooked this.

Personally I dislike splinters in new suits in competitive auctions. The reasons for this are twofold:

• When considering the difference between a fitbid and a splinter, what stands out to me is that a splinter is a 3-suited hand. In particular, on constructive auctions, I play splinters as more than just range + shape, I also demand that it has some values in each of the three outside suits. This helps partner with hand evaluation to compensate for the bidding space we just consumed, and all it costs is that one the rare three-suited-but-one-suit-is-empty fit hands we take the generic game forcing route. In competition, however, splinters are very questionable. They imply length, and in my case also strength, in the opponents' suit. That suggests downgrading the hand - our values in their suit are almost certainly not promoting any tricks for partner, and the length may even be a liability letting opponents get ruffs in. In addition it is very likely that partner has some length in our short suit, with two suits being bid naturally and none of them being our shortage. The splinter does help if the opponents compete an extra level and it instructs partner how to defend, but with length in their suit this is not that likely. The main nightmare scenario that it wards off is if the opponents manage to find an overcall in our splinter suit at the 4- or 5-level, now having shown the shortage early really pays off. But I think this is not common enough.
  
• Having mentioned the competitive benefits, the traditional use for a splinter is for slam investigation. You are hoping that partner has enough values in our three long suits so that we have enough working points out of a 'deck of 30' or 'deck of 34'. With an opponent having naturally bid one of our suits, this is extremely unlikely. Also partner's opening is on average weaker conditional on the opponents being in the auction. So the classical justification for jumping a lot with our own rather strong hand is absent.

In short, with a new splinter I don't mind shading it to a 'game force on power/playing strength'. We know we want to be in game, partner will almost never push to slam over our splinter given all the above, and if the opponents bid on I know what to do (double). That is why I prefer jump shifts to generally be fitbids instead.

For me both 3♣ and 4♣ would be fitbids. Both are forcing and set hearts as trumps. The difference is that 3♣ denies the (offensive) playing strength to commit to 4♥, while the 4♣ bid guarantees it. Neither of the bids promise much in the way of defensive tricks, they are primarily focused on showing competitive or stronger raises with a good side suit.

In hindsight I think there is a lot to be said for mikeh's suggestion of ignoring hearts altogether and treating this as a single-suited clubs hand.