[ggwhiz]

SteveMoe, on 2012-August-22, 01:57, said:

Pass and hope they get too high.

That should be bid and hope they get too high.

I agree that it's close just not close in my partnership style where we cater to any auction that might be a bump and run to defend 3♥ (or whatever) instead of 2.

I understand that the freebid will propel others to 3♠ when they don't want to be there depending on your agreements/style but not selling out cheap works over the long haul for us.

[wyman]

Thank you for posting this. My knee-jerk reaction was "2S WTP?" and I'm really surprised to see some posters I really respect in the pass camp. But this, I gather, means that I need to tighten up a bit, even if I'm still always bidding 2S with this particular hand.

[lalldonn]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-22, 10:10, said:

Awfully strong statement. What would it take for you to pass, removing the J of hearts? If it is that close, and a non-working value, then stop being axiomatic and think about the possible play of the hand.

I would raise with xxx KTx Qxx xxxx. In competition I think it's just too important, especially when I'm not vul.

[neilkaz]

Phil, on 2012-August-22, 10:55, said:

Side note - I have a way to show a mixed raise over 2♥, which is important for partner's evaluation and his decision to bid 3 over 3, so I'm even more comfortable bidding 2♠.

Phil, what's your way to show a mixed raise here in this sequence? Thx .. neilkaz ..

[Phil]

neilkaz, on 2012-August-22, 12:47, said:

Phil, what's your way to show a mixed raise here in this sequence? Thx .. neilkaz ..

I use 2N.

[billw55]

2♠, it's now or never. If I pass now and the auction doesn't end (ugh), I will have to bid this like a yarborough for the rest of the auction.

Now if I could just figure out how the heck to spell yarborough ..

[MrAce]

CSGibson, on 2012-August-22, 10:10, said:

Awfully strong statement. What would it take for you to pass, removing the J of hearts? If it is that close, and a non-working value, then stop being axiomatic and think about the possible play of the hand.

If the KJT was in any other suit, it would be much more likely to build tricks. If we had any other values, it might be worth upgrading. But in a minimum like we have here, opener can hold up his ace once and dummy is dead for all practical purposes.

The other reason for passing is that when RHO bids 2H on a bad suit like this, he is more likely to have outside compensating values. This means that partner's values are likely sitting wrong.

I pass because I believe we are more likely to go plus defending 2H then we are playing 2S unless partner can reopen with a double. This is a corrollary to the law of total tricks - 4333 is a negative law adjustment, as is values in their suit.

Yes, 2S is in range if responder had not made a call. But responder's calls change my evaluation all of the time, and change what is appropriate with any given hand.

I couldn't disagree more.

-KJT is now almost certain 2 tricks after overcall, which was not before the overcall.

-2♥ overcaller has some values but at least 6 hcp of his values are in front of us, this leaves him with another 5-6 hcp behind pd, and pd is allowed to look at his hand follow the auction too. What makes you t hink your pd neccesarilly has unprotected values ? And even if has, what do you think your 2♠ promised ?

-By passing you may have a good result defending 2♥, by bidding you may even have better result defending 3♥, especially if your pdship is applying LOTT pd will often pass unless he has 6 spades. Holding 2 trump tricks when they play only at 2 level is not a deal breaker. You still need your pd to take 4 tricks to defeat 2♥, and if he does you may as well be making 2 or 3♠

-Since you asked for it i have to reply to LOTT comments. Lott NEVER EVER tells you to bid or not to bid looking at how strong or weak your hand is. It goes with number of trumps and it allows you to make adjustments in the total number of trumps, NOT HCPS. So with your logic you would have passed 2♥ EVEN IF you had 8 or 9 hcp, which is funny imo. Because if there is any negative adjustments in this hand, they would be there even if we had an extra Q in clubs.

LOTT allows you to make adjustements on specific holdings of a suit ONLY AND ONLY if the holding in this specific suit differs in defense and offense for creating tricks. KJT is NOT one of them. If AQ is onside you make 2 tricks in defense and 2 tricks in offense (unless pd is expected to hold singleton or void) If Q is offside you make 1 trick in defense and 1 trick in offense. Thus KJT perfectly serves to LOTT and needs NOT to be adjusted untill you can predict pd to be short in this suit. THE LAW specifically tells you to support your pd at 2 level with a known 8 card fit ESPECIALLY a MAJOR suit fit. This is the FIRST step to apply LOTT, this is like ABC of LOTT ESPECIALLY when the war is between ♥ and ♠ suits.

I mean, yes KJT can turn into a negative adjustment depending on how the suit splits, for example if pd has xx ♥ we can make 2 tricks in defense but in offense by the time we take 2 tricks it maybe too late, i understand that, but it is still too early in the auction to make such predictions imo.

I am not even mentioning that by hiding your fit, you are disabling your pd to apply THE LAW in an auction where you have NO IDEA yet how it will proceed, because he will not believe you have 3 of them or if he does he will think you are completely broke due to lack of 2♠ bid earlier. This kind of masterminding a simple 2♠ bid is wrong imo.

I am repeating again, 2♠ shows 3 card fit and 5-9 hcp, it does NOT mean " i likes my hcps" it does NOT mean "i am better than 3433 " it does NOT mean "i have a defensive or offensive hand" it does not mean "i have a constructive hand after overcall" it does NOT mean " i have my HCPS out of their overcall suit"

Basically 2♠ support is one of those bids you do not mastermind or f*** arround with. It is a very small target to aim for to find hands where you profit by passing and hiding your hcps and/or support from pd who has MUCH wider range (10-21) and MUCH wider trump holding (5-6-7-8) than your hand at the VERY EARLY STAGE of an auction which you have NO IDEA YET how it will proceed.

[EricK]

MrAce, on 2012-August-22, 14:56, said:

I couldn't disagree more.

-KJT is now almost certain 2 tricks after overcall, which was not before the overcall.

KJT will very often be 2 tricks when defending a ♥ contract, and will very rarely be 2 tricks when declaring a ♠ contract. If partner is short, you might be able to set up a trick but not cash it. If partner has length the high cards will be ruffed before they are set up.

[CSGibson]

MrAce, on 2012-August-22, 14:56, said:

I couldn't disagree more.

(lots of capitalized ranting)

Timo, I respect you and your bridge. I disagree with you on this point. I want to be clear, though. With an 8-9 count, 4-3-3-3 and values in their suit would still be a negative law adjustment, but nowhere did I say that I was only bidding this way because of the law. I mentioned the negative adjustment as one of the factors that caused me to believe that pass is right on this specific minimum hand.

Quite obviously (to me) if this was a non-minimum, then I wouldn't be considering mild adjustments like negative law factors in the totality of a very close decision.

KJT can be applied as a negative adjustment very easily - either partner is short, in which case there are 16+ total trumps in the fits we are competing in, and a negative adjustment is appropriate, or partner is not short, in which case there are fewer total trumps, again making competing less likely to be right.

I think that since my hand requires a negative adjustment, that bidding 2S would give partner too much opportunity to misapply the law when competing, whereas passing will give him a better chance of applying it correctly.

Again, I think this decision is close. I would not criticize a partner who raised. But I still think passing this hand will give the best results in the long run.

[MrAce]

@ Erick and Chris : I already mentioned (in previous post) when and how KJT can becomes a negative adjustment and said i understand where you guys are coming from, my objection is... it is still too early in teh auction to make such predictions especially when pds hand types for opening 1♠ is way too wide compared to hands that a 2♠ bid can hold, and when we do not have much of a clue how the auction will proceed.

Rightly or wrongly thats basically what i am defending.

[lamford]

2S to take away the 2S cue. And apologies if someone else said that and I missed it.

[dickiegera]

For what it is worth West the opener held AQxxx,Void,KJ10x,Kxxx and took a sacrifice in 4 ♠ after N/S reached 4 ♥

Down 1 was the result when N/S could not make 4 ♥. 4 ♥ should be down 2.
I was East and was blamed for not doubling 4 Hearts.

[quiddity]

dickiegera, on 2012-August-22, 18:36, said:

For what it is worth West the opener held AQxxx,Void,KJ10x,Kxxx and took a sacrifice in 4 ♠ after N/S reached 4 ♥

Down 1 was the result when N/S could not make 4 ♥. 4 ♥ should be down 2.
I was East and was blamed for not doubling 4 Hearts.

Yes, I think you should hit 4H if you get the chance, especially if partner is in the pass-out seat. Your hand is all defense.

[SteveMoe]

Phil, on 2012-August-22, 10:56, said:

I think this is backwards. I would much rather have ♥KJT + ♣xxx than the other way around.

We can disagree.
Strength in ♥ is valuable on defense against their ♥ contract but does not contribute to establishing length tricks in our suits. The ♥KJT means they hold equivalent values in our suits...Not good for our offense.
I much prefer ♥xxx + ♣KJT when supporting partner. Better chance my values are working. I would bid 2♠ with that holding and not the OP.

[SteveMoe]

Last I looked, 9.5 losers + 7 losers means 2♠ is 0.5 tricks too high.